Is non-duality a philosophy?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by onemoment, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    It is not at all uncommon to encounter (radical) monists who disregard the notion of the absolute housing variety due to their own (conditioned) experience of variety. The very issue of calling upon conditioned existence (ie "fear of identity") to act as a yard stick for unconditioned existence is problematic from the very beginning.

    I only mention it because you indicate that variety is absolutely a bad cause (based on your own conditioned experience of it).
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  3. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Meaningless question. It is not possible for any one to do everything humanly possible.

    He did what he did.

    Epicurus found the mere absence of tribulation was a source of lasting happiness.
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  5. swarm Registered Senior Member

    The gasses in the fire are more energetic, but where exactly did you think the smoke was coming from?

    So? Some parts can be lost, others can't. What's your point?

    I don't see that as being under "superior potency 24/7." So your god is a bowel movement?

    Actually an in depth investigation. The main purpose of god seems to be in keeping the ignorant from having to admit to their ignorance. Instead they just say "god did it."

    What purpose does god really serve in your life?
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  7. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

    Goat. Not sheep. You weren't paying attention.

    It doesn't challenge mine, but you seem to think it does anyway ...

    Good questions. I suggest you keep exploring.

    Perhaps. I suggest you reread Lightgigantic's posts in this thread.

    Find out.

    You have always liked intellectual pursuits that challenge societal paradigms ... because ...?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2008
  8. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

    He did what he did? And that's enough? There is nothing more to life than what one has done so far?

    If I put a pot of beans on the stowe, but cook them for only five minutes and then turn off the stowe and put the beans on the table - I did what I did. But this doesn't mean that the beans are cooked and edible. Or does it?

    So? Is Epicurus God? Is Epicurus someone who speaks the Absolute Truth? Is Epicurus someone whom I am obligated to believe, and am going to go hell for all eternity if I don't?
  9. swarm Registered Senior Member


    I'm not in a position to make that judgment. That is for him to decide.

    If you have advice or guidance you could even offer it if you think it is worthwhile. But asking pointless questions isn't terribly helpful.

    Personally I find all this theoretical stuff, while fun to chat about, is not terribly useful in terms of actual impact on the happiness of one's life. What Epicurus and the Buddha laid out works pretty good for me. YMMV.

    Is poorly cooked still cooked? Does it matter since beans are edible raw? Can you not find your way back to the stove?

    Epicurus found the mere absence of tribulation was a source of lasting happiness.

    So you implied that discarding notions of self altogether to cut off suffering means also discarding any possibility for happiness.

    Epicurus, who is held by some a knowledgeable expert on matters of happiness, holds that you are not discarding any possibility for happiness because the absence of suffering is in and of itself a source of happiness. Also such relief is effortless to maintain and does not result in satiation making it a preferred source of happiness for the long run.

    This is also the position held by the Buddha and various other eastern philosophers.

    Obligated to believe? I could not care less what you believe. My personal experience is they were on to something and many of the techniques which have been handed down work really well at producing lasting happiness. In particular I enjoy using Epicurus as a check against the insane monastic influence which has infiltrated the Buddha's teachings.

    Try it out or not as you might care to.

    What did you expect? On the bright side as long as you draw breath there is still more that can be done.
  10. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member


    Hence my question to Onemoment earlier: Can you really say that you have done everything humanly possible to find true happiness?
  11. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

    And you are sure I haven't tried it out, eh?

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  12. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Your question is not useful. Its just making light of his efforts.

    Your caginess suggests that if you have, you have not succeeded.
  13. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

    No, I am not.
    You are projecting lowly intentions onto me.

    Because if I succeeded ... then I would be like you, right?
    And surely, it is impossible that there would be something better than what Epicurus espoused!

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  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    yes that's right, there is a difference of substance, just like the difference in substance explains why we wear a woolen jumper and not a sheep, even thought the woolen jumper came from a sheep
    some parts are essential and some parts are contingent
    like this we can easily extrapolate for a full daily itinerary of dates and pursuits as we go about busily acting in ways we cannot control (finally culminating in death)

    time is one of god's contingent potencies

    BG 11.32 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Time I am, the great destroyer of the worlds, and I have come here to destroy all people. With the exception of you [the Pandavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.

    actually its more the case of less-than-casual investigation of us serving god .... a connection through service .... kind of like you would empty your bank balance to have your finger connected to your hand if it (god forbid) got chopped off ... but if you couldn't reconnect it for what ever reason, you wouldn't even bother to keep it in a jar
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2008
  15. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Then your question fails to accurately reflect your intent.

    Alas that is not necessarily the case.
    Still I see no evidence that you have succeeded.
    Please do so me I am mistaken if I am.

    Something better than leading a good life?

    I’m open to suggestions. What do you have?
  16. swarm Registered Senior Member

    You are confusing form with substance. Just like ice, water and steam are different forms of H2O, wool on the sheep and wool in a sweater are different forms of the same substance.

    And yet they are still no less part of the whole.

    So god causes bowel movements? Sure we are influenced by our surroundings, we also influence our surroundings. That doesn't mean we are under "superior potency 24/7."

    No it isn't.

    You do realize myths aren't literal truth? You can get similar stories in the fantasy section of any library.

    No. Not really.

    I would so keep it! I'd probable have it preserved by being infused with plastic like that cadaver collection. That would be so cool its almost worth the loss of a finger.

    Put some fake blood on the stump and "pull" it off and hand it to people.

    My great uncle got a lot of kicks from his missing thumb and he didn't still have the missing member.

    You shouldn't assume I have your hang-ups.

    What does that have to do with god any way?
  17. onemoment Registered Senior Member

    Where exactly does conditioning, or even the idea of conditioning arise, except in the mind? And is that all the Self is? Conditioned thought? And what I point to is not ‘conditioned’ and is experienced without the mind (the experiencing of the senses),

    In relying on the senses – sight, touch, smell etc - for a change, what is reality? That is the reality to which I refer, not the reality we describe by conditioned mind. Quite apart from whether that’s genuinely my experience or not - for you cannot tell and it does not matter - you can’t deny such a reality exists prior to the mind’s interpretation.

    It seems like with all our explanations on what this Self can be, we have not looked to see if that thought, perhaps, cannot find an answer for thought is always conditioned/from a perspective. Maybe Self is beyond conditioned perspective which is all that mind is. Maybe the answer is beyond logic. Could logic be the only answer when logic, too, is mind?

    ‘Why must what I am pointing to be the reality then?’ you may ask and even if I were to answer, there would no doubt be some other question – but once again I say, ‘How can any definition describe reality except but to say we may know the object but never really ever know the ultimate answer or cause with the mind – isn’t even ‘There is no answer’ an answer of/in the mind? So what is there without conditioned mind/answers. And is conditioned mind what Self really is, for this seems to be, by definition (Hehe) when we use mind to find answers.

    Isn’t this what all scriptures are pointing to – not that the pointing story has anything to do with what’s being pointed at.

    And then, if what we find is indescribable – just this knowingness of everything – does that mean it is not what we are because we cannot describe it? We have looked so long for an explanation in the mind and have arrived at no definitive answers – maybe if we looked beyond the mind, the answer is clearly there – why not devote some time to exploration of that for a change and see what lies there and if any questions arise there of ‘What is Self?’. Those who see clearly/are ‘enlightened’ tell us that is where the ‘answer’ lies. Perphaps it does. No conditioning in that!
  18. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    persons who write up compensation plans for insurance policies governing the loss of body parts in the workplace disagree ....
    given that bowel movements are certainly something insurmountable for us, you have a problem with that?
    you can influence yourself so that you don't experience a bowel movement?

    I am just trying to help you understand your bowel movements .... god is a somewhat more complex topic, so maybe we can put it on hold for the time being

    well just as well we are at sciforums, eh?

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    I over estimated you
    remember that next time you have to rush off to the lavatory to perform some "important business"
  19. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    without the "idea" of conditioning, its not clear how one could even approach the notion of "oneness" (as advocated by radical monists) as doable

    according to radical monists, yes

    And what I point to is not ‘conditioned’ and is experienced without the mind (the experiencing of the senses),
    I don't have a problem with this.
    What I do have a problem with is the suggestion that this "reality" is uniform, that there is no distinction of individuality etc etc

    ditto above

    basically the mind is something like a glove that covers the hand - we may say that it is the glove that is moving but actually we know that it is the hand that animates the glove - similarly it is the soul/self/atma which animates the mind and gives it the impression of self-hood. One can understand this by transcending the mind, which is part of any bonafide spiritual discipline
    I'm afraid this is still on the mental platform
    scripture points to god and the point of understanding one's relationship in connection to him - dwelling on the problems of selfhood in the material (conditioned) world is simply a means to downgrade our fascination for exploiting god's potencies

    for as long as one cannot distinguish between one's own consciousness and the consciousness of god, and even the consciousness of other living entities , one will remain more or less in a state of illusion
  20. onemoment Registered Senior Member

    Well maybe they are incorrect in telling it that way. I can see kind of what they are saying - to remove the mind from the picture for a moment, we need to see that the mind is just an instrument and that there may be something that is there before the mind. We can use logic to come to see this or we can just look because we have never looked before.

    Look at it from a physics perspective - it you are seeing this world with some amazing instrument that allowed the manifestation to be seen on this level, where does one atom end and another begin - my body and the space around the body could not be differentiated.

    Without the instrument, with eyes closed (because it is easier this way it seems) what boundary exists except that which is construed by the mind?

    A discipline implies the existence and use of mind. It keeps us fixated with something we have defined as 'mind' and perhaps it doesn't really exist at all. Maybe we are looking to transcend somehting that need not be transcended.

    All words can appear this way but what it points to is the prescence, or whatever else you like to call it, on which mind and everything appears.

    From a quantum physics perspective, there is only space, virtually, as particles become waves of ????? - nothingness? energy?
  21. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

    Do you know what the principle of charitable interpretation is? So far, you haven't shown much understanding of it in your communications with the people you disagree with.

    Of course you don't.

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    What does that mean?

    If you think that living in line with Epicurus' principles makes for a "good life", then we might as well be of different species, living on different planets. No point continuing this discussion.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  22. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member


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    Stop and smell the roses.
    Watch the grass grow.
    Enjoy the raisins and slowly sip the tea.
    See that bird? Oh, lovely.
    Feel how good that feels.
    The biggest problem with the world is that people think in dualities. If they would only stop and smell the roses ...

    And yet those roses don't smell good enough, so people who believe the things like you do come to forums like these and ask questions such as "Is non-duality a philosophy?". Good.

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  23. onemoment Registered Senior Member

    Roses are smelling better and that judgement I make is just for the purposes of discussion for whilst the experiencing is happening, that is all it is - experiencing happening - free of the 'truths of the mind'. It is because I make no judgement that it is better, that I do not accept or reject whether it smells good or bad or better when the smelling is happening. Just as now 'the writer who writes' is just a story told about the experiencing of writing.

    I care not for what others say must be so and care little for what thoughts arise here for me as to what is so, just the same - all this talk and chatter in the mind is one time happy, other time sad - with the mind there is no enduring or sustaining contentment (it does not sense) and for some reason there is only drive and belief that this cannot be how life should be - and it is so and I am 'coming' to sustain something as it is so (though no real 'coming' is there for it has always and is ever there), and more and more lovingly by neither accepting or rejecting, just always 'observing' as 'no observer' and mind plays just as a tree sways and someone smells a rose.

    And how do they smell for you?
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008

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