Is Punching A Nazi OK?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by ElectricFetus, Feb 3, 2017.

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  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    34,091
    Offenses involving actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin.—Whoever, whether or not acting under color of law, willfully causes bodily injury to any person or, through the use of fire, a firearm, a dangerous weapon, or an explosive or incendiary device, attempts to cause bodily injury to any person, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person.

    You don't "willfully cause harm" "because" by accident. "Willful" precludes accident. "Because" precludes accident. And in this cases, what that means is, accidentally needing to kill someone because someone wrongly perceived threat.

    Is it that you don't really pay attention, Stumpy? You just keep trolling. Skin color as criterion of danger. Mortal fear. I even discussed contradictory inquest verdicts about the judgment of being really really scared when there isn't actually a threat. And throughout you're just deliberately wasting your time and everyone else's on a useless troll job tyring to change the subject. And along the way, you misrepresent↑ the record↑, repeatedly↑. Really↑.

    And you even called me out directly↑ to witness your advocacy of Nazi respectability.

    Or the bit rejecting the right of a black man to defend himself↑, and the excremental↑ revisionism↑ reminding that Stumpy will say anything to justify the murder of a black man ... yeah, speaking of malice, you never have told us what's up with yours.

    Look, seriously, the only mystery about your troll job is who you think you're fooling.
     
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  3. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    675
    i can make the exact same claim: I referred directly to [the] DOJ link on the Brown shooting, and you refused to accept it.

    difference: i quoted the findings, physical supporting evidence and the conclusions
    you quoted just one of the Wilson witness statements

    who is wrong? you singled out a small point in a changing statement, that you said had changed, that the DOJ document acknowledged changes in, as justification for you belief

    1- WTF?

    2- i've already explicitly stated what i need, repeatedly, for the past 15 pages or so

    3- you've provided articles to support your belief, so why do you fear providing the source material if you're so sure the articles covered the facts?

    4- refusal to produce source material to support your argument is pretty much all the evidence really needed to prove you have no argument or justification for your beliefs
    yes: articles are opinion and not proof of anything other than the opinion of the author
    i have no real opinion on the bases of Zimmerman, really, because i do not have the source material to make an informed decision on


    if anyone makes or forms an opinion on the written material in the news, they could well be misinformed. case in point: "Tribal Rites of the New Saturday Night"
    here is an even better and more relevant example: the navy yard shooting - where the gunman was originally said to have an AR-15, and in one case, used an AR-15 shotgun

    1- which account?

    2- if you meant the news articles of his account: how did you validate the news article was correct?
    2a - if you meant another source: how did you validate this was correct?
    2b - if you meant a verbal account over the news by the person: this is not the same thing as the witness statement unless it is specifically included in the adjudication and used as evidence because it could be after the fact, or it could be showboating for attention, or it could be.... do you get the point yet?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  5. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    675
    1- this is your interpretation of the law - you literally just inferred malice
    and
    2- you didn't actually answer the question: where does it say malice need be present?

    3- per the written law you quoted: if a person shoots another, even in self defense, then said person uses the justification of said shooting by argument of race, as explicitly stated in the law then said person can be charged with a hate crime.

    you just proved my point and failed to prove your own point - literally - You just keep trolling.
    i can prove you're trolling
    you say:
    the law says
    it's not rocket surgery, nor is it about implications or inferences of malice. it is explicitly worded.
    yes - you've shown your opinion on the articles in the news which is the authors opinion

    like ice, not once have you ever produced source material from any of your so called justified shootings - the closest you've come to source material is a state statute
    state is trumped by federal if they're covering the same topic

    but the topic is: killing blacks in the US
    self defense laws don't cover that, but 18 U.S. Code § 249 does

    reporting your other crap as trolling baiting BS
    you still can't provide source material so you are attempting to garner support for your position by interpreting what i say as repugnant, then justifying your argument by simply lying
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    12,273
    You won't; it's looking like it's an ego thing for him now.

    Killing someone because they're black is illegal, even if someone gets away with it.
    Killing your wife because you are angry with her, or she's a cheating bitch, is illegal, even if someone gets away with it.
    Speeding just because you are in a hurry is illegal, even if a lot of people get away with it.

    And all the above don't depend on some esoteric philosophy or a thirty-two-paragraph rationale full of ALL CAPS and Bolded Statements - they depend on the definition of the word "illegal." And I find that once someone starts redefining words to try to win their argument, the discussion is no longer productive.
     
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  8. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    675
    i want to expound on this - because you still don't get it, apparently, based on your comments
    here is the thing about source material: the judgement must take all evidence into consideration

    lets take a look at your point about the double engagement - it is based upon a single statement from page 12-13
    you admit as much: and you state i am ignoring it
    so, does that statement prove guilt? what other evidence is available?
    so, we know there are multiple sources of evidence, and levels of evidence. some more reliable than others (Physical forensic evidence trumps eyewitness testimony; or can corroborate/refute it)
    how does that work?
    so, when you take the source material (the DOJ document), and you focus on point [x], while ignoring all the other points, then it is either an attempt to argue a bias or you've found the evidence needed for a federal grand jury to prosecute under the law

    now, considering you've not had experience in investigations and the law, as evident by the refusal to link source material, then we can immediately dismiss the latter unless, and only unless, there is a secondary investigation that uses your point of contention to justify prosecution

    i state a secondary investigation for a purpose: we do not have access to the original forensics and thus cannot make an actual informed judgement about it with secondary validation review, which is why evidence must be preserved in a case. and in a homicide case, evidence must be maintained for quite a long time

    this is why i don't bother with your singular point as justification for anything: the cumulative evidence speaks volumes
    this is why i ask for source material as well. there may well be myriad points of contention in any adjudication - however, unless you're a defense team of lawyers or an investigator attempting to find evidence of a crime (which you are neither) then you only really require the summary, justification and conclusions

    in the DOJ document, that is: I, II, VI
    those really are the important parts unless you want to make a specific point about the legal system
    and to do that you must have at least some experience or know something about the legal system
    otherwise it's uninformed opinion about information you don't understand

    (unless, of course, you make an informed opinion based upon the legal writings, on the record, of a consultant and or judge, hence my oft repeated attempt to get you or tiassa to talk to a prosecutor about the legality of killing blacks in the US)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  9. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    675
    actually, for "them" - tiassa is making the same argument

    sigh

    yep
    that has been a point i made from the beginning - what constitutes legal
    or what makes something legal

    you should see the hoops they jump through

    actually, no
    you would only get pissed and start repeating, in all caps with red letters, the same point and get dinged like i did
    [actually, chastised - sorry]

    .

    EDIT: addendum

    i have mixed feelings

    there may well be a person who is capable of thinking critically reading this thread now or in the future, and as such, what example will they have? tiassa the super genius who can't comprehend the difference between a law that covers self defense versus the explicit wording of a hate crime? and how self defense may justify killing, but it doesn't justify killing "blacks" specifically?

    how will they know what constitutes "legal" if it isn't stated or drilled into the thread as a point every time someone makes that logical fallacy jump to justify their claims?

    how will they know how to find information about what is being said in the media to prove or disprove the article author's statements in law?

    they don't teach this in schools - how many people were taught in their high school that there is source material for the law just like there is source material for science?

    some people may be taught that the law is listed in the CFR's, state and local statutes in a law library, but that doesn't teach anyone that there is always a source document for every case, with a final judgement, even if it is a dismissal or something similar


    so i am torn

    technically you could argue that they're trolling and baiting at this point given their refusal to actually link source material to justify their claims, much like it is done on any science thread when anyone refuses to link a study and instead links something similar, like creationism

    if someone had posted an article about [insert topic] when the study directly refutes the claim, and then repeatedly linked articles when the source material refuted the claim, it would be moderated

    so why is the above law topic not similarly moderated, even when moderators are asked to review it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,944
    No, it proves double engagement. You stated that in Wilson's initial encounter with Brown he knew Brown was a violent robbery suspect. That was not the case, as Wilson himself testified under oath, and all physical evidence and eyewitness account supports. The significance of that (to the argument here) was then explained to you, at least twice - with the suspicion that you already knew it, because you insisted on denial.
    Not if the intermediary step of mortal fear, as outlined in my argument, justifies the killing. That's not "getting away with it" - that's being fully responsible for doing a legal deed.

    It's not that the killer is declared innocent - it's that the killing is declared not a crime.
    Again with the irrelevant, clueless, completely missing the point repetition of what everybody has always agreed is a fact of this world.

    If you are found, in a court of law, to have done those things, you will be declared guilty. If a court finds that you killed your wife because you were in mortal fear of her, and you were in mortal fear of her because you thought she was a cheating bitch (cheating bitches sometimes murder their husbands for the insurance, after all), or because she tried to take your gun away while you were threatening her for being a cheating bitch, you are guilty of committing a crime. The deed itself is a crime - if you did it, you committed a crime. And no one is confused by the intermediary step of being in mortal fear, a fear of your contrivance or invention - that only mitigates your guilt: that you killed your wife because she was a cheating bitch is a perfectly sensible and well-understood and accurate description for what you did, which was a crime.

    If you get away with it, it won't be because an authority declared what you did to have been legal. It will be - as in the farcical OJ example - because there was doubt about whether you had done it.

    Penny drop?

    Nobody's banging on about the definition of "illegal" except except you clowns.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,087
    Relentless, aren't you?

    Here is a summary of the argument:

    It is legal to kill somebody because one feels sufficiently and legitimately threatened by them; it is legal to feel legitimately threatened by someone because they are white (even if you are a member of a minority); Therefore, in some circumstances, it is legal to kill somebody because they are white.
    If you are a member of a minority it is legal to have killed somebody because they were white.
    Because they were white, it is legal for a member of a minority to have killed somebody.

    Evidence:
    =======================================================

    Stand Your Ground Frees Black Woman Charged In Killing White Man In Road Rage Incident
    Posted on July 3, 2015 by EaSY G

    In what her attorney called a “perfect stand your ground case” an African-American Texas woman has been cleared in the shooting death of a white man who she claimed was a threat during a 2012 Harris County road rage incident. Crystal Scott, of Houston, had been charged with murder in the death of Jonathan Ables. Prosecutors dismissed the charge on Monday, June 29, 2015. The case drew widespread attention because of its racial undertones.

    https://endstandyourground.wordpres...ees-black-woman-charged-in-killing-white-man/
    =======================================================

    Victim: Patrick Lavoie (killed)
    White male
    Age at time: 33
    Weapon: unarmed

    The accused: Cleveland Murdock
    Black male
    Age at time: 38
    Weapon: gun

    Case type: Road rage
    Location: Defendant's Property
    Initiator: Victim
    Witnesses: Yes
    Case year: 2010
    Location details: Defendant's car in Pompano Beach, Broward County, on Sept. 15, 2010

    What happened: Patrick Lavoie, a passenger in his girlfriend's Honda Civic, felt Cleveland Murdock was tailgating them as they drove in Pompano Beach. Lavoie told his girlfriend to stop the car, then he jumped out and angrily approached Murdock's black Toyota Tacoma truck. When Lavoie, who had a cigarette lighter in his hand, tried to reach through Murdock's passenger window Murdock shot and killed him. Murdock had a concealed weapons permit.

    The outcome: The Broward County Sheriff's Office spoke with witnesses and interrogated Murdock, then let him go, turning the case over to prosecutors to decide if murder charges were warranted. In November 2010, a grand jury decided no charges would be filed.

    Investigating agency: Broward County Sheriff
    Case decision made by: Grand Jury

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_89
    =======================================================

    Victim: Shane Huse (killed)
    White male
    Age at time: 33
    Weapon: unarmed

    The accused: Oscar Delbono
    Hispanic male
    Age at time: 53
    Weapon: gun

    Case type: Neighborhood dispute
    Location: Defendant's Property
    Initiator: Victim
    Witnesses: Yes
    Case year: 2009
    Location details: At the front gate of the defendant's yard in Homosassa, Citrus County, on June 14, 2009

    What happened: Oscar Delbono, 53, shot Shane Huse, 34, in the neck and shoulder after an argument between the neighbors, the result of a long-running dispute over Huse's two pitbull terriers. Huse's two small children were in his truck nearby when Huse approached the shooter's yard after midnight. A witness said the two were arguing and Huse, who had previously threatened Delbono, was "flailing his arms." A witness who saw the fatal shooting said Huse was turning to leave when Delbono shot him, and bullet entry wounds supported that account. Delbono said he thought Huse was "going for something. I feared for my life."

    The outcome: No charges were filed. "It is a tragic, unfortunate set of circumstances that occurred, but given the state of the law there's no criminal prosecution," wrote assistant state attorney Pete Magrino, according to the Citrus Daily.

    Investigating agency: Citrus County Sheriff
    Case decision made by: Prosecutor

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_36
    =======================================================

    Victims: Edward Borowsky (killed), Steven V. Lonzisero (injured)

    Edward Borowsky
    White male
    Age at time: 28
    Weapon: knife

    Steven V. Lonzisero
    White male
    Age at time: 43
    Weapon: knife

    The accused: Hygens Labidou
    Black male
    Age at time: 49
    Weapon: gun

    Case type: Road rage
    Location: Public
    Initiator: Victim
    Witnesses: Yes
    Case year: 2007
    Location details: At a street intersection in Deerfield Beach, Broward County, on Dec. 13, 2007

    What happened: Hygens Labidou was confronted by two men who yelled at him for his driving then stopped their pickup truck in front of his and threatened him. Labidou, who is black, told police the men pounded on his truck and yelled racial slurs. He said one of the men, Steven Lonzisero, carried a knife. Labidou stayed in his car and fired his gun, striking both men and killing 28-year-old Edward Borowsky. Sheriff's detectives initially arrested Lonzisero on murder charges for his role in his companion's death, but prosecutors declined to pursue those charges. Labidou, who had a concealed weapons permit, was not charged. He called 911 after the shooting.

    The outcome: Not charged
    Investigating agency: Broward County Sheriff
    Case decision made by: Police

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_23
    =======================================================

    Victim: Fernando Castulo Morales (killed)
    White male
    Age at time: 32
    Weapon: unarmed

    The accused: Edwin Vargas-Lopez
    Hispanic male
    Age at time: 34
    Weapon: knife

    Case type: Fight at bar/party
    Location: Defendant's Property
    Initiator: Victim
    Witnesses: Yes
    Case year: 2009
    Location details: In the defendant's car outside Antojitos Mexicanos Restaurant and Bar in Bradenton, Manatee County, on March 14, 2009

    What happened: Fernando Moralez was stabbed to death outside a Bradenton bar. Defendant Vargas-Lopez had been dancing with a woman when two men confronted him. He left, got in a truck and was punched through the open driver-side window. He stabbed out the window. A witness said she was in the process of dragging the victim away when he was stabbed.

    The outcome: Murder charge reduced to manslaughter, then dismissed by judge.
    Investigating agency: Manatee County Sheriff
    Case decision made by: Judge

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_5
    =======================================================

    Victim: Omar Bonilla (killed)
    White male
    Age at time: 27
    Weapon: gun

    The accused: Demarro Battle
    Black male
    Age at time: 21
    Weapon: gun

    Case type: Fight at bar/party
    Location: Victim's Property
    Initiator: Unclear
    Witnesses: Yes
    Case year: 2009
    Location details: During party at victim's home in Fort Myers, Lee County, on July 17, 2009

    What happened: Demarro Battle fatally shot Omar Bonilla after an argument at a party. Earlier in the dispute, Bonilla had fired his gun into the ground and beaten Battle in the head. Then Bonilla ran inside his apartment, gave his gun to a friend, telling him to hide it, and returned unarmed to confront Battle. Battle, meanwhile, had retrieved his gun from his car and fatally shot Bonilla.

    The outcome: Battle was arrested by police and charged with second-degree murder. But charges were dropped by the state attorney. "Under current Florida law the defendant had no duty to retreat," an assistant state attorney wrote.
    Investigating agency: Fort Myers Police
    Case decision made by: Prosecutor

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_27
    =======================================================

    Victim: Marcos Santiago (killed)
    White male
    Age at time: 17
    Weapon: unarmed

    The accused: Adeirean Carey
    Black male
    Age at time: 26
    Weapon: gun

    Case type: Attempted home invasion
    Location: Defendant's Home
    Initiator: Victim
    Witnesses: No
    Case year: 2009
    Location details: Defendant's home in Pine Manor neighborhood in Fort Myers, Lee County, on June 09, 2009

    What happened: Adeirean Carey heard a noise outside the window of his house and told the intruder to stop. He said he fired a warning shot, not knowing it hit anyone. Marcos Santiago died, and police later found evidence that he was trying to break into a window.

    The outcome: The charge of manslaughter was dismissed under stand your ground, with no opposition from the state. The assistant state attorney said, "The stand your ground law has ramifications that the Legislature did not envision. It oft-times slaps the face of grieving families."
    Investigating agency: Fort Myers Police
    Investigating agency: Lee County Sheriff
    Case decision made by: Judge

    http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_26
    =======================================================

    Furthermore:

    Blacks benefit from Florida ‘Stand Your Ground’ law at disproportionate rate

    But approximately one third of Florida “Stand Your Ground” claims in fatal cases have been made by black defendants, and they have used the defense successfully 55 percent of the time, at the same rate as the population at large and at a higher rate than white defendants, according to a Daily Caller analysis of a database maintained by the Tampa Bay Times.

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/b...d-law-at-disproportionate-rate/#ixzz4YxFJr96U
    =======================================================

    So, between this argument and that of our esteemed colleague Iceaura it has now been shown that it is legal to kill people in America. Fait accompli...
     
  12. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,087
    In a less tongue in cheek mode, there are a lot of interesting data at: http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/

    Such as:
    Race's complex role
    A Tampa Bay Times analysis shows that people who claimed self-defense after killing a black victim were more likely to go free than those who killed a white victim.
     
  13. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    675
    for starters: what you perceive to be double engagement can be argued to be double engagement or simply a single engagement, and it isn't relevant, really, to the legality of shooting blacks, or it's factual representation statement you and i-MOD have presented - so when you say this:
    it doesn't make a damn bit of sense
    the reason why:
    1- it's still a federal law that you can't shoot someone over race
    2- because in that said sworn testimony, the exact same witness statement, Wilson explicitly said he did recognize said suspects as he passed them during the, what you are calling, "disengagement", for what you call the second engagement. that all happened at the same time.
    so, if you say the argument is valid because of the point of not recognizing the suspect, then you're wrong because that is proven false. the only thing you're clinging to is the semantic argument of a double engagement, which is irrelevant to the point of the legality of shooting blacks in the US

    and moreover, none of that was illegal as the law enforcement officer was legally performing his duty, regardless if this was a 2nd, 3rd or 42nd engagement. the suspect violated the law and attempted to fight for whatever reason, and this is also clearly stated in that same witness statement, which is not a matter of supposition or "he said; he said" as this is also corroborated by physical and forensic evidence. as well as the recognition of a suspect. hence my pointing out to you, repeatedly, that other paragraph and the rest of the statement.

    if you want to focus on the wording of a single point in the statement and make a case, i suggest you file a class action lawsuit and see just how far it gets you, as a judge will shut you down with the exact same argument.

    so that part of your argument is closed and clearly explained: what else do you have to prove it's legal to shoot blacks in the US regardless of the explicit law that states otherwise?

    oh right: you're opinion and interpretation of state statutes on defense, which is why you say
    and again: this is not evidence that it is legal to shoot blacks in the US
    this is evidence that, in certain states, there is a law that has allowed certain people to defend themselves and you interpret it to mean, in certain circumstances, that due to the racial element, it is legal in those states to shoot blacks.

    nowhere have you produced source material that actually proves this with a statement or explicit wording from the final judgement
    not once have you produced any source material that is not subjective
    everything you have hinges on two things:
    1- the Wilson/Brown shooting to which you are ignoring the physical and forensic evidence and attempting to interpret the findings
    2- your belief that all your news sources are 100% correct

    the first is proven to be a bad idea for various reasons - the least of which is your ignoring all the evidence and failure to provide a logical reason why it applies to the federal and overall US legality of shooting blacks when it explicitly states otherwise in the section on law in the document itself.

    the second has been proven to be a bad idea because you can't trust someone's opinion on a topic when you don't bother to actually validate that said opinion is factually correct, as noted by my reference to the NYTimes article and the Navy Yard shooting.

    the best argument made on the point of shooting blacks in the US really may be the argument of "malice"... except that there is no legal requirement to prove malice as explicitly stated in the quoted federal statute ( 18 U.S. Code § 249 ). now, you can argue "malice" on the state statute, and likely that is one of the reasons people have not been prosecuted, but there is no explicit statement in 18 U.S. Code § 249 that requires proving malice; only the point of proving it was racially motivated. that is it. it is racially motivated. once this is proven it is considered a crime per 18 U.S. Code § 249 as this is explicitly stated in the law.

    now, if you want to prove that it is legal to shoot blacks in the US, you have to provide source material, and i even suggested how to do this: get a prosecuting attourney and or judge to issue a formal written statement advocating your argument. in writing. and i have stated that multiple times as well

    this will never happen because: it's illegal
    and i have stated that multiple times as well

    actually, you are: when you state and support the argument that it's legal to kill blacks in the US, then produce your argument of state statute while blatantly ignoring the federal statute, then you are not aware of what constitutes "legal"
    as such, it is a matter of you making an argument because you're not aware of what "legal" means - you are using your interpretation of what it means

    and you proved that by your argument of multiple people getting away with shooting blacks with a state law that is about self defense without ever once providing the source material which proved this was a racially motivated crime, not a self defense situation

    it doesn't matter if there is a multi-race incident. it matters if said incident is racially motivated, which is what you're arguing... but how can you prove that by simply pointing to two separate races? i mean... where does it justify your argument that the shooting was because he was black? other than the media attention that is proven to be biased, subjective and usually anti-gun?
    where?
    where does it prove it?
    because you say it does?
    because some author said it does?
    because [insert media outlet] said it does?
    ok, so they say it does: how do you know that is factual?

    get it yet?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  14. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    675
    if i may make a point: that is not really source material, though you are correct about there being a lot of interesting data
    and this is one of my points that i've made a bit, too... source is important

    i liked the link though - i used to live in Tampa. graduated high school there. i hate the place, but it brought back some fond memories.
    can you provide any source material from the court records?

    and for the record: i am not stating that you're wrong in making the claim "people who claimed self-defense after killing a black victim were more likely to go free than those who killed a white victim" based upon your newspaper article

    i will question the source, however, considering it's a newspaper and not something with a few more constraints, like say: a scientific study

    i would even take a DOJ, BJS or FBI study over a newspaper study as they at least produce all the source material and data to review.

    EDIT:
    also note: this wasn't the argument between ice and i
    it is legal to kill people in the US under certain circumstances. i've never challenged that one

    i just wanted to make that clear before someone chooses to latch onto that and go all uber-stupid

    this is in no way an attack on the data, that point, or anything else, and is offered for clarity and specificity only

    just sayin'
     
  15. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    675
    now this part i will challenge:
    although i do appreciate the tongue in cheek point - the evidence you present still only demonstrates that it's legal to defend yourself under state law or to kill a person due to self defense
    (or you could make the claim that homicide is legal under certain circumstances)

    it in no way, shape, or form, validates the claims that homicide due to race is legal
    or as tiassa put it, and ice defended:
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,087
    Well, duh... That's the point. However, if Ice wants to say that his logic and citations show that it is legal to kill black people then the exact same can be used to show that it is legal to kill white people.

    I'm lost - you did realize that was what the exercise was for, right? I want to see whether Ice says, "Yep, you're right - legal to kill white people" or "No, that's different" and why.

    My position hasn't changed - this is a misuse of the word legal.

    PS - I've never encountered Poe's law before re a post of my very own...
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,139
    A couple of years ago Louie CK hosted SNL and did this bit on “mild, benign racism”—the whole opening monologue can be found >>>here <<<. Too lazy to timestamp, so just watch the whole damn thing, or don’t.

    Anyways, for Louie, an example of such would be seeing a white guy in a hoodie outside a gas station at night. He thinks “ athlete” or whatever. Then:
    Would you agree that we (in the U.S.) have lots of notions about “scary black guys,” but not a whole lot about “scary white guys”? Stand Your Ground laws are contingent upon “feeling” threatened; conversely, a Nazi is demonstrably—in fact—a real threat. Like, you know, by definition. Kinda seems like some are deeming "feelings" as more rational justifications for action than "facts." Regardless, one’s only got to “feel” in danger for one’s life. So, on the legality of killing blacks and whites, if you agree that the “scary black guy” theme is still very much prevalent in U.S. culture, and the “scary white guy” theme is virtually non-existent, save as a joke:

    Would you then agree that, in actuality, it is far more likely to be legal to kill a black guy than it is to kill a white guy?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,139
    Just to clarify: I was being lazy there and alluding to the "war as justification for punching" argument, and the non-existence of a formal peace treaty with the Apache. I'm not aware of any significant "white genocide" sentiments amongst the Apache, only the "white genocide" strawman invention of neo-Nazis.
     
  19. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,087
    WTF is wrong with people? Of course I would agree with that, perhaps you missed this post:
    and this one:
    and maybe this one:
    As I posted to T:
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,944
    And if Ice does not, and never has, said or "wanted to say" that;

    and if that is yet another repetition of TCS's strawman paraphrase, which by now only trolls and the like would be bound and determined to talk about rather than the actual argument,

    which it is

    no point in treating it with respect.
    Which is excellent, because as we know (and you proceed to demonstrate) the minor premise of that argument is false rather than true: it is (apparently) not legal to feel legitimately threatened by somebody because they are white.

    And you have presented several examples of the difference - showing that white people are a threat when they are actually attacking somebody, police officers in control of situations and making official decisions don't appear in lists of those shooting unarmed white people behaving normally, etc.

    So we see that is really difficult, as you illustrate, to find examples comparable with - say - an armed black man in an unmarked pickup truck following a white teenager down a dark street , chasing him when he ran, getting into a fight with the kid, and killing him when it appeared the fight wasn't going his way.

    Unless the difference between victim and assailant, threatened and threatener, instigator and target, raging accostor and normally behaving accostee, and so forth, is another example if one of these quarrels over what "is" is. Of course.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,990
    I'm trying to understand the point of dispute in this thread.

    Is anybody here actually arguing that it is legal to kill somebody on the basis of their race alone? I don't think they are, but correct me if I'm wrong about that.

    And is anybody actually arguing that is illegal to defend yourself if you're being threatened? Again, I don't think that's what people are arguing here, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

    On the thread topic (and I haven't read the entire thread), the answer as to whether it's ok to punch a Nazi depends on the circumstances. Punching the Nazi just because he's a Nazi is an assault and not justifiable on the basis that you don't like his political or racist views. On the other hand, punching a Nazi who is threatening to hurt you because he doesn't like your race (for example) may be completely legal and legitimate.

    So, could somebody please explain what the actual point of dispute is here? Or are you all just spending page upon page splitting hairs?
     
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  22. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,735
    I think you've nailed it, thanks.
     
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  23. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,024
    Nazis are by definition a threat to anyone who isn't white, or straight.
     
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