Is Taxation Slavery?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, Nov 9, 2012.

1. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
MOD NOTE: This is a splinter thread created from a bunch of off topic posts in the "Predictions for Obama's Second Term" thread regarding taxation. Here are a few quotes from Leo Tolstoy in support of Michael's argument:

Today, nobody sees, or wishes to see, that in our time the enslavement of the majority of men is based on money taxes, levied on land and otherwise, which are collected by government from the subjects.

Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave.

Government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us​
And a few more quotes:

Now on to the discussion:

A few points

1) If a person is very successful what gives you any right at all to their money? Let me guess? Because they use the roads? I find it funny Americans feel a right to take something from their neighbor 2000 miles away in another State but would never think of extending the same violence to their neighbor 2000 feet away in Canada.

Nationalism is a type of superstitious thinking.

2) It's also interesting that no one here would feel comfortable personally pointing a gun at their neighbor and beating the money out of them. But, sure, if it's someone else, wearing a blue-grey SS clown suite with an Official Title - oh, then it's OK. Beat the f*ck out of that 'Greedy" ole bitch.

Support of violence is just that. Calling a vote, wearing 'special' clothing, obtaining 'title' doesn't change this fact - all of these are just more forms of superstition. Violence is violence. If you're party to - then you are party to it.

3) People who make a lot of 'money', in a just and moral system, obviously have skill at efficiently distributing wanted goods within that system (by moral I mean there is no rent seeking activities). Why would you take money from this human and give it to another human who's skill is getting elected - primarily by lying to the electorate, pitting one group of humans against another and demagoguing wedge issues? Stop to think about what this wealthy person is going to do with their money?
A) Invest
B) Save
C) Spend
All of these things puts that money back into society - and assuming cheating didn't occur, this person was wise and shrewd enough to make their money, they'll likewise apply options A-C for the benefit of society.

Lastly, and this I find the most insane - the feeling and argument: We don't have enough money. Money ONLY exists in our minds. Only in our minds. Everyone get that? This game of taking from the 'rich' because they don't pay their fair share is simple slight of hand. You REALLY want to 'tax the rich'? Stop taking their money and ALSO stop using it. Use your own. Problem solved. Now, you'll hear people say: That'll never work - they're right, so long as everyone is stuck believing these insane superstitions it won't. But, once people stop believing the illusions and start believing in what's real, then it will. To the benefit of all of us. I actually except to new forms of money organically arise as the present system collapses in on it'self. There is no shortage of money. It CAN only exist in your mind. That's a fact.

Nationhood, Religion, Politics and Money are all well thought out handcrafted superstitions and once you see past them, then real change can happen. Until then, well, I advise raising your kids peacefully and rationally because in a game of insane, I promise you, you will not win.

Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2012

3. spidergoatValued Senior Member

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50,815
It's called citizenship and it's voluntary. Want to keep your money? Get the --- out.

Last edited: Nov 10, 2012

5. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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heh.... this is like saying: It's called an illusion and it's voluntary... unless you have some mental construct - then it's not, and we'll take that imaginary item from you OR you can try to leave this illusion, but you can't!! Because the world is one big insane asylum!!!
BWAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!!!!!!

Another way to think about these sorts of things is like this. Suppose 5 people decide you're a citizen of the new country they just formed. Also, they just voted you have to pay tax - all the money in your wallet. You certainly can see the insanity of this proposal? Of course you say I don't want to be a citizen. Well, tough. You see, you can't leave - there's no where to go.

Last edited: Nov 10, 2012

7. spidergoatValued Senior Member

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Exactly. Now you're getting it!

No, YOU take part in the decision to be a citizen. There is everywhere to go. You can live off sea urchins. Or you can accept that you are a victim of circumstance like everyone else.

8. pjdude1219screw watergate i want to know about zaragateValued Senior Member

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15,633
so your understanding is sheer dumb luck means you don't get to say fuck you to society. sorry bub we all know your immature enough to believe you have a fundemental right to tell the society that allowed you to succed to fuck off but most adults come to terms with their responsibilities.

you may still be lieve that someone's success actually has a whole lot to do with merit but it doesn't its luck.

9. BalerionBannedBanned

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8,596
Is it that you find it funny, or is it that you don't understand that Canada and the US are two different countries? Because your statement above makes me think it's the latter. Why should I consider taking money from Canada?

...right...

You realize no one is having money beaten out of them, don't you?

Again, it's not violence. Taxation is a system that allows for services to be provided to the public. If you want to live in this country, you have to contribute. I won't say all taxes are fair or just, but the concept certainly is.

You didn't share your toys as a kid, did you?

Your complaint here seems to be regarding the character of politicians more than the concept of taxation. Maybe you need to run for office yourself?

Yes, counting on the wealthy to build public roads and provide public schooling, civil service institutions such as fire departments and police stations, is sure to work. I can see it now: Donald Trump donates police force to the barrio out of the kindness of his heart.

Imagine that.

Well, you sure weren't lying when you said this was the most insane.

10. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
The same argument could have been made to a Slave 200 years ago.

Citizenship is just another tool to keep the poor trapped on their farm. Unless you're ruthless and cold to the core - you probably don't want to play that sort of game with the oligarchs who run the country. They don't think normal. The sorts of things that social embarrassment would prevent you or I from doing, doesn't really effect them. I once was waiting to pick up a girl I knew well. As I stood in the doorway I watched as her brother, a 25 year old fat ass (who knew I was there) jumped up and down (in the air) threw himself on the floor, kicking and screaming like he was two years old because his dad wouldn't buy him a new $80,000 convertible BMW. His dad calmly said no, I just bought you a BMW three months ago and I'm not buying you another one. This slob of a man-child lept in the air screaming "It's not fair! It's not fair! It's NOT FAIR!!!" To these people Nationalism is nothing. They're Citizens of any country they chose to be - and own property in many from Australia to Japan to China and Canada and the USA. They don't see money as most 'normal' people are trained to think of money (thank you public school). And the fact is, as childlike as some of them are, they are taught well and do have a very good appreciation for what is real when it comes to what is important to maintaining their lifestyle - including money and how to use it to exhort labor from you and I. Money is nothing. You working, now we're talking. 11. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member Messages: 20,135 Being born in the geographical location that is Michigan and saying "I'm American" is the same as being born in the geographical location that is Saudi Arabia and saying "I'm Muslim". It's a superstition. Thinking one has the moral right to 'vote' a person into Slavery because their skin color is different or their belief system is different is the same as thinking you have the right to vote a person into Slavery because their "Nationality" is the same. It uses the same illogic. Many Americans are in prison for not paying tax on their labor. To get an unwilling human into a cage... well, as you can imagine, beating them is part of it. Most humans will accept this IF the person doing the beating has a nifty title like SS Officer Heinlick and an official clown costume given to special people by the State. Ooooo maybe even a 'badge' that ... sure is a shiny badge there Public Office, Sir. Again, Slavery is not violence. Slavery is a system that allows for services to be provided to the public. If you want to live in this country, you have to contribute. I won't say all Slavery is fair or just, but the concept certainly is. Sorry, but initiation of force is coercion and this is immoral and thus the concept most certainly is unjust - you'll note you sort of lose your own train of thought at the end of your sentence. How can Slavery the Public Institution be both unjust and the concept of Slavery be just? Nationalism and Religion will be superstitions whether I owned any toys or didn't. As it is, on$40 a week, I didn't have very many toys. I did a lot of paying in nature and walking in the woods and talking as a child. For Christmas I used to ask for flavored cereal - particularly captain crunch berries. A lot of sports don't require you to own your own 'toy'. You only need one football and a baseball bat can be shared. By the time I was 12 I started working to help pay the rent on the small trailer I grew up in so, I didn't really have much time for playing then on out to tell you the truth.

No, it's really about the system as a whole. I'm not sure if you want in on it or really want to change it?

Which is it for you?

See, me, I always wanted to have NOTHING to do with the system - I hated the system. I will be more than happy to see it end and change hopefully to become more just - and not only conceptually, but actually. I've lived in enough other countries to see through many of charades that are US politics and am amazed to see people still falling for right versus left in this day and age.

Firstly, public schools are horrible and this is evident as nearly 40% public school teachers put their own kids in community private schools. Homeschooling would be even better education and cost effective. Secondly, most of these 'Civil Institutions' are not wanted or needed and if anything work to undermine the community not strengthen it.

As for roads (ah yes, The Roads!)- unlike your notion we need the rich to be taxed, I don't feel we need the rich to pay to build the roads. We don't need rich people at all. I'll happily self organize a business with other community leaders and we'll build our own roads ourselves by applying our communities capital productively.

You know, like Banking used to do? I mean THAT was the role OF the Bank.

Many Catholic contemporaries said the same of Galileo - but I'm quite sure the Pope wasn't one of them.

NOTE: I'm certainly not saying I'm Galileo, but, I liked how he used Science to determine what he believed reality was and not social mores.

My predictions for Obama: More of the same. The rich will get richer. The poor, much much poorer. More Citizen Kill lists. Less civil liberties. And much more debt. Finally, the inflation the government needs to erase all those pension promises the Civil "Servant" Labor Unions forced out of the public.

12. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Oh God, again with your insane History. Yes, the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression Joe. There, happy now!?

Fiat means by decree. We can use multiple forms of currencies - some of which will be commodity backed and other not. The free market will determine the value of these.

13. BalerionBannedBanned

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8,596
First of all, this is an apples-to-oranges comparison. One may not necessarily be a Muslim if they are born in Saudi Arabia (and I'm not a fan of labeling babies with religious denominations), but one who is born in the United States is an American. It's a legal status that provides tangible rights and benefits to that child.

To say that a person born in the US is therefore freedom-loving and God-fearing, or somesuch, would be superstition, but to call them American is simply a fact.

Nobody's being voted into slavery here. I see you're still relying on absurd non-sequiturs to make your case.

It would, if it were actually happening.

This is true. However, let me point out that the following passage is entirely removed from this previous sentence, in that it does not argue against imprisoning someone for not paying taxes, but rather argues against the very concept of human imprisonment itself. This is where your argument falls to pieces. Look:

I am sure there are cruel prison guards who abuse inmates, but they are few and far between. For the most part, prisoners are not subject to any kind of physical manhandling unless they instigate it. And non-violent offenders such as tax evaders can serve their entire sentence without any harm coming to them. Save, of course, for occasional spats with other inmates.

14. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
To a Muslim a child IS born a Muslim. And, just like being born "a United State of America Citizen" it also provides tangible rights and legal benefits to that child. Saying I was born a American is the same as saying I was born a Muslim.

Most Muslims, like most American, really don't waste too much time thinking about what it means to BE a Muslim (or American). It's just what they are.

Allahu Akbar!!
Allahu Akbar!!
Allahu Akbar!!

USA!!!
USA!!!
USA!!!

Do these two superstitious ways of thinking about reality overlap identically? Nope. But, they're still the same kind of thinking.

Muslims will make an argument that Christians should pay a tax for practicing Christianity. You're making the argument the laborer should pay for laboring. Why? Oh, because the laborer lives in "America". The Christian lives in Caliphate. And look at all these wondrous things the Christian enjoys - like the roads.

Income tax, a tax on labor. It took an amendment to the US Constitution to be able to tax a person of their labor. See, Americans understood you could NOT tax labor. When a laborer sells their labor into the market, why would would they pay a tax? They already OWN their labor. It doesn't make any sense the laborer would pay tax on that which they own (sometimes you'll read some asinine arguments that laborers are actually paying for the 'right' to work).

Is that your argument? What is your argument? I mean, other than YOU USE THE ROADS! Why is it, do you think, the laborer should pay the Federal Government for the right to work?

Are you sure you're not thinking superstitiously? Are you sure you don't look at the roads and see confirmation bias? Are you really being objective? Do you really think it's a one big coincidence you just so happen to have beliefs aligned perfectly with the way you were raised to believe? Ever find it funny how Muslims just accept theirs is the correct religion. Is it coincidence? Nope - they just somehow by sheer luck happened to be born at the right time to learn the 'truth'.

So, tell me, why do laborers have to pay a tax on their own labor?

15. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
Firstly, do what ever makes you happy.

But, lets not resort to lying. I did NOT make any changes of yours in a quote as if it were from you. Are we clear? I didn't attribute anything to you. Got that? Because maybe you're a little thick and missed the point in MY rewording of your sentence to make clear your logic. Your way of thinking. The topic is initiation of force. Replace "Initiation of Force" and see if that helps clear up my point.

Or don't, I really don't care.

But, lets be clear, unless you're extremely thick, you don't really believe I was suggesting you were making the argument for human Slavery. Do you? No, you don't. So, it seems to me, you appear to be quite at ease with fibbing. Like any other small minded fibbers - when logic fails, time to resort to threats and bully tactics.

Second of all, feel lucky. Given that 99.6% of Americans agree with you - be happy. As society sinks lower than it already has, just blame the right or the left. Go out and vote and wonder why nothing changes. Libertarians only make up 0.4% of the electorate and they're not uniform. Almost all politicians are Big Government Keynesian's - they only quibble over which big government projects will get the money: Welfare or Warfare.

Lastly, YOU responded to my post - try and remember that. I won't be wasting my time responding to any more of yours.

16. joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,296
First your chart is bogus. It is not from the St. Louis Federal Reserve nor is the data from the St. Louis Fed. The Fed doesn’t compile the CPI nor publish that data. CPI data is not sourced from the Fed. CPI data is compiled and published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

For your edification there are 5 components of interest rates:

- Risk free rate
- Default Risk
- Expected Inflation

So given the CPI data in your chart, it is inconsistent with “interest rates near zero” as your chart claims.

I have previously posted this material, but will do so once again for your edification.

As you can see from the above chart, since leaving a commodity backed currency, implementation of Keynesian economic policy and creation of the Federal Reserve depressions have been virtually eliminated and inflation have been more moderate and less severe. Additionally, let me remind you that the US began the process of withdrawing from the gold standard back in 1933 when FDR issued Executive Order 6102 criminalizing the holding of monetary gold by US citizens, residents, and businesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

17. joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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22,296
So you think the historical record as documented by numerous sources is insane? Well that explains everything and why you keep attempting to rewrite the dictionary. And where are you getting this claim about the Federal Reserve? It simply isn’t true. The reality Michael is that the Fed is not responsible for every ill. The solution to every problem is not to kill the Fed as you would have folks believe.

And the fact remains that the top 1% that you like to complain about is financing and promulgating your ideology.

As has been endlessly pointed out to you, the free market determines the value of fiat currencies today (less the currency manipulators like China) and out of the 180 some currencies issued today by various sovereign governments, not one is commodity based. All nations started leaving the gold and silver standards in the early part of the last century.

And as endlessly pointed out to you, leaving the gold and silver standard has been much more beneficial with more moderate inflation and virtually no depressions – contrast that to the time when commodity backed currencies were the norm, frequent severe inflation and depression was the norm and not the exception.

18. eyeswideshutRegistered Senior Member

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Except that all the currencies were pegged to dollar, which was pegged to gold until 1971 when Nixon declared pure fiat dollar, so technically all (?) currencies were under gold standard until 1971 ?...

19. kwhilbornBannedBanned

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2,088
@ Michael,

Because America does not have vast oil fields to pay for infrastructure, and American society is far more developed than Muslim Majority nations. The roads in America need to support many autos and trucks and not so many herds.

Income tax was brought about during war, and is a part reason why America is so powerful. Oil Countries can maintain religious rule as long as oil continues to sell, but should a new energy source come around the Muslim nations will depend on something called "International Trade", and they will need to behave a little nicer and yell "infidel" a bit less. They may even require women in the workforce to compete and lose their 18th century abuse against women.

In history; people were required to pay church taxes. How are church taxes different except they are not garnished from your pay? Income tax is a government way of making sure you do certain things like.
Some countries provide free health care. People too dumb to buy health Insurance should not die because of that mistake. Good countries take care of their own.
- Save for a rainy day.
Many are not prepared for unemployment. unemployment Insurance pays for some unemployment, but Welfare will stop your kids from starving in the streets. Good countries take care of their own.

Now we can also say that Income tax is used for anything governments purchase, and the United States is one of the greatest countries in the world.

Even Muslims can walk around and feel safe in the USA. The laws and many people do not discriminate.

You describe Income tax as "paying to labor". That is not true. It is more like you got a job in America, so America wants their cut/royalty for protection fees.

It is better than some Dark Ages taxes where citizens were required to pay outrageous taxes even when the crops failed them. Income tax does not tax the people who are out of work.

It is a wonderful achievement.

If people are too stupid to not pay their taxes then that is a criminal choice, and those withholding tax money should know that the money was due and likely had ample time to pay it.

Where would you propose governments get their money, if not through Income tax? Maybe we could fire all the police forces and live in Anarchy.

Income Tax is an achievement, and a fair tax system,

20. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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"Numerous" sources? Really Joe? Are you sure? Have you gone back and checked? The fact is many times there is only ONE source that is referenced. In some, interesting instances, where the Rockefeller family gave very nice out sized monetary 'donations' to support the career of a budding historian who later became the go-to 'expert' you will find that this person is the one referenced and he only referenced one person - one source. Everyone else just references him.... I mean, he's a successful historian. I mean *gasp* he's a "Rockefeller Fellow" and a Professor". Ergo an expert. You'll find sometimes these so called experts (many from the 1950s) didn't even have a degree ... let alone in History!

Here's a Historian who did some due diligence, giving a lecture on the History of Economic Cycles Before the Fed.

Particularly of note starts @31:00 where Woods (Harvard University B.A. Columbia University PhD and Professor of History) describes the History of a Bubble Housing Crash that collapsed the US economy under the auspices of the 2nd National Bank of the United States.

I find this is almost EXACTLY in the same way the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression a hundred years later (or around 3 generations) and now the Mother of All Depressions a hundred years following that (or again, just enough generational time to seem like something new has happened). While Woods doesn't suggest there's a connection, I think there is. Intentional? Conspiratorial? Nope. It's just the natural inevitable outcome of using our messed up monetary system that unduly favors the Banks.

Anyone with even the most remote tiniest bit of interest in the history of the United States would do well to listen to this Historian.

21. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
@kwhilborn

You seem to think it's the "government" that is protecting people. Well, I disagree, but I'd posit this to you. If the government is the will of the people. Then the government CAN only do what the people will. Thus, if you find the homeless sheltered, the lame cared for, the sicked mended - that is NOT because of the government. It's because of the people.

Thus, there is no NEED of the government. If anything, once the government steps in - it actually destroys community. Which is exactly why the Red Cross REFUSED to accept money from the government. In 1931 the Red Cross turned down a proposed federal grant of \$25 million, arguing that this would destroy private charity. IOWs - destroy community.

Whichis where we are at now.

RE: .... and live in Anarchy

Actually, anarchy is an ideal prosperous peaceful society. Anarchy means from from rulers not free of rules. Just thought I'd point that out

Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
22. Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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20,135
Then what is interest Joe? You're telling me that the Federal Reserve isn't manipulating the price of money through interest rates? And the gall to call CHINA a currency manipulator?!?! Give me a break.

July 2012
IMF says renminbi ‘moderately undervalued’

Only in an insane banker's world could a country, we'll say China, produce a product, like an iPhone5, and practically give it away to Americans AND have Americans complain. A good indications up is down and left is right. We live in the insanity that is Keynesian. Take a good look around, imagine how normal Communist Russia must have seemed from the inside. You know, like when you get something practically for FREE (like an iPhone5) ... and that's bad. Very werry werry bad.

23. joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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That is true, under the Brenton Woods agreement major currencies were pegged to the dollar and the dollar was pegged to a statutory gold value. Bretton Woods fixed exchanged rates to faciliate better trade. The gold exchange rate under Bretton Woods was also fixed and only between nation states not individuals. But it doesn't much matter now, all world currencies are pure fiat currencies and most are traded on open makets every market day.

Last edited: Nov 12, 2012