Is the beauty objetive or subjetive?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Asexperia, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    So ,moral beauty?
     
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  3. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and it is more important than physical beauty.
     
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  5. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    The very concept of beauty - that is, pleasure derived from visual/auditory input - cannot be "hard-wired", since it's a very late evolutionary development: an invention of the complex, multi-chambered mind. What humans (and all sexually reproductive animals) find desirable is basically whatever looks to them like good breeding stock: sound limbs, symmetrical torso and face, balance, easy locomotion; the outward signs of durability and an amicable nature. Any cultural embellishments on that basic template, like outsized biceps, presence or absence of hair, tattoos and ritual scarring, etc are gravy.
     
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    So - paranoia?
     
  8. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    That's an ineptly-named esoteric concept, unrelated to the sensory perception of beauty. It's a metaphor, which can't be treated as a branch of aesthetics, in the same way that one would treat a symphony, a race-car or a building.
    When we consider a person's moral character, we use entirely different criteria and judge entirely different qualities than when we're judging a beauty pageant. The only reason "personality" and "talent" were included in those was hypocritical: simply to pretend it's not a display of sex-objects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  9. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Intelligence and education are auxiliary of senses in the valuation of moral beauty.
    Crime and the abuse of vices (cigarettes, alcohol, drugs) are very ugly behaviors.
     
  10. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that's how love works.
     
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  11. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Yes
    Maybe so, subjectively. (I'm suddenly reminded of a scene with Bogart and Bacall.... and I do not turn away in revulsion.)
    Nevertheless, they are in a different category of valuation from the aesthetics of nature and art. You are confusing the metaphor with the actuality - a common and extremely self-confounding mistake.
     
  12. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    No, that is not how love works. It's easier to repeat a facile slogan than to understand a complex relationship.
     
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  13. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    "The devil is into women and they never can be easy." - Grateful Dead
     
  14. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean ?
     
  15. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    By which statement?
    The first one, [they are in a different category of valuation from the aesthetics of nature and art.] I have already explained: aesthetics - the appreciation, understanding and evaluation of beauty in art or nature - is one kind of human activity. The spiritual/civic/ethical attributes of individual humans fall into the purview of social interaction, which has nothing to do with aesthetics. Reproduction and sexual attraction fall into a broader category of primal interests.
    In human minds and cultures, there is inevitably overlap of the primal with ethical, social and aesthetic interests: sex and spirituality (very often together) are used as subjects of art; reproductive mating is turned into a sacrament while recreational mating is turned into a sin; art is employed in the enhancement of sexual attraction; civic duty is elevated to moral duty by religion while the legal system preoccupies itself with religious taboos, and so forth.
    This overlap also leads to the borrowing of descriptives from one realm by another: thus: "a beautiful mind" or a "sexy car" or a "divine sonata". We use the terminology figuratively - as metaphor. That's fine, as long as we remain cognizant of the fact that there can be no visual appreciation of the functioning of a brain, nor a romantic liaison with a motor vehicle, nor a cult devoted to a musical composition.
    The second [confusing the metaphor with the actuality ..is a.. self-confounding mistake.] simply means what you and kx000 have done here: conflating the slogan with the situation, the label with the content. That evocative metaphor is self-contained; it has no conduits to the depth of the subject and no external sources of information.
    It means that if you take the metaphor at face value, there is not enough material for discussion or examination: you'll never reach any useful result, because you will go around in the same little circle.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
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  16. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Moral beauty, metaphorically, is understood as the correct and healthy behavior of a person. Physical beauty is temporary and only moral beauty can be improved over the years.

    Beauty has an objective and a subjective component. I believe that the subjective component has more weight in the aesthetic valuation.
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Just channeling Rainbow. How did I do?
     
  18. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    So we choose an action defined as "moral" by recourse to an appreciation of it as somehow "beautiful"?

    Can you give a few examples of "moral actions" that show this property?

    Perhaps a few moral dilemmas might illustrate whether "beauty" can be called into service?

    One example :There is a terrorist threatening to kill billions of undeserving victims for reasons that only make sense to him or her.....
    This terrorist happens to be very thick skinned but extremely sensitive to the wellbeing of his lover.

    The moral dilemma is whether to use this weakness to save the innocent billions by inflicting terrible pain on his lover .

    Is there beauty in this course of action?

    Or we are filming a nature documentary where the predator kills its prey in a gruesome manner .

    Should the filmmaker show this to educate the audience ?
    Is there beauty in such an education?
     
  19. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    little boys do this !
    little girls do that !
    ... speech ?
     
  20. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Post #20.
    Moral beauty is composed of positive values: justice, honesty, goodness, altruism, sociability, truth, responsibility, etc.
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Projection.
    The one line innuendos are mostly projections.

    Most mammals and birds prefer the "look" of certain places and landscapes - no surprise if that preference is felt as a sense of beauty. Many like useless shiny objects - rats, corvids, bowerbirds, etc.

    A sense of beauty has a visible Darwinian payoff so often that the presumption might be warranted.
     
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  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    why is sex omitted from this aspect when there is so much drive toward sexual interaction ?
    is this an asexual concept of beauty ?
    or a religious anti-sex concept of breeder pairing selling down ?

    i assume you should have read various studys on beauty measures of response by the body, adults & babys ?

    if you have not then your playing with half the deck & i strongly suggest you do some research

    generically i agree with this
    however your tagging on spiritual beauty without also listing sexual beauty renders your spiritual beauty concept to be somewhat cult-like ideology(in my opinion).

    where is the action ?
    humans interact & act, morals are defined by actions
    please list some examples of actions

    keep it real !

    while humans have the ability to define an ideological thought premise as an attractive paradigm which is quantified as an aspect of desire or lust
    (im not going to finish the description because i want Asexperia to answer the actions example question)
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Do you talk like this in your everyday life? If so, why?
     

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