Is There A Universal Now?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Cyperium, Jun 14, 2022.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    So much for

    and there goes my

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  3. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

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    • Please do not post nonsense.
    Well you could make a Jacobian of every massive galaxy and find time moves at one second per second.
     
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  5. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    ****UNIVERSAL NOW STATEMENT****

    This Universal NOW seems to have blended with Does time exist

    I'm OK with the blend, since they appear to fit together well

    I feel I should put out a sort of statement though as the debate part of my position, while not exactly off track, seems to be in the region of "what do you mean by that"

    DEEP BREATH

    I do not believe time exist

    So one of the first obstacles to proving time does not exist is the obvious "proving a negative"

    I would counter that by requesting those claiming time exist - bring your existing time forward please

    Second are the many reactions to such a view. As if I am the only person with such a view

    Please Google - Does time exist - and read any of the many articles indicating there are physicist holding the same thought alongside many holding the view time does exist, with a lively debate going on between the groups

    Next puzzlement, for me, is the term "exist"
    My goto dictionary, Merriam-Webster let me down badly here

    1a: to have real being whether material or spiritual

    What the hell is spiritual doing in there?

    Google dictionary gives

    1. have objective reality or being.

    That's more like it

    Regarding having a "objective" stance

    Regarding "objective", that can be achieved by having
    • a physical item - with physicality - present with anyone able to exam it
    • for a phenomenon - without any physicality - a instrument capable of detecting the phenomenon
    Having a instrument capable of detecting the phenomenon (time) would seem to be the choice for proving time exist

    Both real stuff and phenomenon have properties
    • a physical item being examined will reveal its properties
    • a instrument capable of detecting the (a particular) phenomenon will reveal the properties of the detected phenomenon
    To this moment as I understand
    • no physical lump of time has been put forward for examination and also
    • no instrument capable of detecting time has been constructed
    I hope my statement will move the blended debate Is there a Universal NOW / Does time exist out of the "what do you mean by that" region

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  7. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    Michael345;
    Time was a practical necessity for all aspects of human activities: agriculture, business, law, travel, etc. A simple coffee and pastry at a cafe, gets you a time stamped receipt.

    The Coordinated Universal Time standard is an average of a few atomic clocks in the US and Europe. This is necessary since all clocks drift due to effects of SR and GR.

    The cesium clock rates are regulated via a feedback system of electronics and lasers, with exceptionally high precision of ± 1 millihertz.
     
  8. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    681
    James;
    Generally we experience events sequentially. Each person is at the center of their own perception space.
    The sequence is partly influenced by the persons choices and partly by random events beyond the persons control.
    In the case of driving to work we experience objects and their location in one order.
    Driving home we experience the same objects and their location in the reverse order.

    In the case of multiple/simultaneous events we select some on the basis of importance and ignore the rest. After perception, we consider events as past, and assign a clock time if the event is considered significant.

    There is movement in space, but not in time. Time is the number of artificial clock events that are simultaneous with the conscious awareness of events of interest.

    A clock is any periodic uniform process that can be counted.

    The entropy argument is not convincing. There are formations of orderly complex structures constantly appearing, (plants, animals, humans, via genetic codes) and (atoms, molecules, stars, planets, via em, nuclear, gravitational forces). After 14 billion yrs, the universe is still here, very orderly, and no heat death.
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I would put that as coordination required for efficiency

    We invented our own time units (since time is / was (and still is) non existent)

    We then proceeded to co-ordinate our invented units for efficiency

    Agree. However said orderly complex structures constantly appearing require an energy input to form and a energy input to maintain formation

    Is our Universe maintaining its orderliness via a energy input from outside our Universe?

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  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Moderator note: Beaconator has been warned for posting nonsense to our Science forums.

    Do to accumulated warnings, Beaconator will not be joining us for the next two weeks.
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Little off topic but a small update

    Got rid of Merriam-Webster - installed Collins
    Was spiritual put in to please the woke rabble?

    After installing Collins checked "exist"and get

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    Had to do screen shot, can't highlight - cui/copy - paste

    Weird collection of meanings

    Might / should start another thread

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  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    This might help.

    To exist means to be objectively real.

    For example, time exists.
     
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    OK

    Work with that

    Please give an objectively real example

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  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No problem. You are objectively real. That is, people in general can agree that Michael 345 is a guy who posts to sciforums.

    On the other hand, if you dreamt you were a dog that would not be objectively real. At best, it would be subjectively real, albeit probably only while you were still asleep.

    Time is objectively real. For instance, people generally can agree that everything doesn't happen at once. Ergo, time exists.

    But we've already been through all this.
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Ummm people generally can agree - starting to sound subjective to me. Also a bit of it must be true if most people say it's true

    Please explain, how does everything not happening at once translate to time is (objectively) real?

    Have you a example where people have gathered and been able to touch and examine a objective time?

    Have you a example where people have gathered and been able to watch a display on a piece of objective equipment which represents a time signal it is receiving?

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  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Objective (n.): Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena
    Of course. But this is silly. You've already wasted enough of my time with this nonsense.
     
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    So you have examples, great ✅

    I have just put my glasses on

    Looking - looking


    Ummmmm do not see any examples ??????


    Well you did say
    yet here you are saying "You've already wasted enough of my time with this nonsense."

    From my view point (time does not exist) you have not wasted anything

    And I am at a loss how I could / are being held responsible. Did somebody calling themselves Michael 345 force you to reply? If so I would report the matter to the police. Said person was / is an impostor

    If however you were not forced can I, as per
    look forward to some piece and quiet from this post?

    I will assist you in
    QUOTE="James R, post: 3704493, member: 4402"]I don't think I have anything else I can say to you on this topic.[/QUOTE]
    keeping to this by not replying to any post you post

    I will benefit by getting my


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    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Fair point, Michael.

    Wasting my time is on me, not on you. I made a bad choice to engage with you again on this topic. I just can't help wanting to try to help, sometimes. It can be frustrating when such efforts come to naught.

    I might pop in again to correct errors, but otherwise I'll leave you to this topic. Enjoy.
     
  19. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    681
    James;

    You mentioned 'process'.
    Someone else did a while ago.

    'The Meaning of Relativity', A. Einstein, 5th edition 1956, page 28:
    "In order to give physical significance to the concept of time, processes of some kind are required which enable relations to be established between different places. It is immaterial what kind of processes one chooses for such a definition of time. It is advantageous, however, for the theory, to choose only those processes concerning which we know something certain. This holds for the propagation of light in vacuo in a higher degree than for any other process..."
     
  20. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    Michael345;

    I found more understanding of 'time' by asking how it is used and what purpose it serves. Scientific American, Sep 2002, was all about time as it relates to different aspects of life.
     
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    OK. The time, I think you are referring to, would be the sectioning up of, for example a day, into smaller units for the purpose of regulation

    As I mentioned earlier
    it allows us to co-ordinate activities of groups of people for the purpose of obtaining a common goal

    If I am incorrect (wrong) in my thinking please advise and steer me towards your
    how it is used and what purpose it serve thoughts

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  22. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    Michael345;
    Not that we know. The order results from the universal laws, which organize things from atoms to galaxies. Energy is recycled, like everything else. Matter and energy are interchangeable. A good example happening now, the hurricanes that intensify via heat energy absorbed from the warm oceans. Heat isn't the end of the line.
    For our local world the sun supplies all the energy. It appears to be a common feature of the universe, with billions of stars.
    Genetic code is only found in living organisms. What is its origin?
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Don't think so
    Physics ya?
    Well I would express energy as being exchanged from one form to another
    Originally? Through possibly one of these ideas

    The genetic code is nearly universal, and the arrangement of the codons in the standard codon table is highly non-random. The three main concepts on the origin and evolution of the code are the stereochemical theory, according to which codon assignments are dictated by physico-chemical affinity between amino acids and the cognate codons (anticodons); the coevolution theory, which posits that the code structure coevolved with amino acid biosynthesis pathways; and the error minimization theory under which selection to minimize the adverse effect of point mutations and translation errors was the principal factor of the code’s evolution.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...ncepts on,structure coevolved with amino acid

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