Is this anything special?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Johenric, May 6, 2012.

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  1. Johenric Registered Member

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    Lets say I had made a magnetic device that lit a bulb until parts wore out. (like the light bulb burning out).
    No outside power was used to start it or to power it other then the magnets themselves during the duration.

    Is this perpetual motion?
    Is this creating more energy then what is being put into it?
    Or is this nothing special and just basic stuff and I'm missing something?

    Asking here because I'm only a high school graduate and know very little about theoretical physics and what can and can not be done, as far as we know.

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    Thanks
     
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  3. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    You need a moving magnetic field to generate a current, meaning you have to put work in. A still magnet won't produce anything.
     
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  5. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    I would suggest that you peruse the pertinent equations of Maxwell, Ampère, and Faraday.
     
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  7. Johenric Registered Member

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    Huh?

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    I'm just asking a couple questions. I'm not saying i have done anything. Let say i had done that. If so what are the answers to my questions assuming the first part is true.
    Simple answers please as that is all that is required, I am a simple guy.

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  8. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    No.

    No
    "Special" doesn't exist outside of an individuals mind so that part of the question doesn't apply. What you are describing is wireless energy transfer (it's been done) but it is not basic stuff.

    You picked a good place to ask!
     
  9. Johenric Registered Member

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    I erred in my explanation of the magnetic device. The device does have a constantly moving part that never stops. Well as far far as i have seen it will not stop until the magnets lose their magnetism.

    Sorry for asking this again but is this perpetual motion?

    On the second question, just so i understand this better, is the bulb being powered by the magnets as its energy source? If so, are the magnets being "worn out" faster because energy is being taken from them? The bulb is getting the energy from somewhere and radiating it off as heat and light. If the heat and light is the gain then where is the equal loss?
     
  10. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Perpetual motion is a way of describing machines that are impossible to build. Let me give you a common example. Suppose I attach a generator to the shaft of a motor. When the motor turns, the generator produces electricity. People who don't understand that perpetual motion is impossible think they can connect the power from the generator to the motor, so each turns the other. Of course it won't work as they think.

    In your example, the magnet is in motion forever. So far it sounds like perpetual motion, but what we really mean by the term is self-perpetuating motion, that is, the machine makes as much or more energy than it needs to stay in motion.
     
  11. Johenric Registered Member

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    So self-perpetuation motion is possible?
    If so does that mean that this magnetic device is creating free energy? (other then the cost of building the device).

    Sorry if I'm sounding like an idiot but everyone is helping me a lot in learning. Thank you very much for bearing with me.
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    What you are describing is a generator. It doesn't turn forever or on its own power. It needs an outside power source, like a motor or an engine. A magnet doesn't power anything by itself. It doesn't power a motor and its doesn't power a generator.
    No, by magnets placed in motion by another power source such as the motor or engine needed to turn them.
    The loss is in the power used to turn the magnet, a motor or engine, or some other source. The magnets won't last forever, but they will last a very long time. They are more susceptible to heat than just being used like this. Energy is not taken from them as you think, so it's not relevant anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    No. Effects like friction prevent it from being possible.
    No, since you have to move a magnet to create electric power, the magnet isn't giving you anything for free. It's just helping you convert energy from one form (mechanical motion of your engine or motor) to another form (electricity).
    You're demonstrating intelligence by asking. Hopefully the answers here will resolve your questions.
     
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. Perpetual motion would mean that the magnets never lose their magnetism and move forever.

    Without seeing the device, it's hard to answer. I *suspect* the magnets turning produces electrical charge that is sent through a wire or something to power the bulb.

    Yes, but not necessarily the way you might be expecting. If my suspicion above is correct then magnetism will be lost due to the following reasons:

    o Time. The atoms that produce the magnetic field get used up. A decent magnet can lose about 1% of its potential energy per day.
    o Heat friction from spinning. That heat causes demagnitism.

    See above.
     
  15. Johenric Registered Member

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    I'm have been sitting here trying to figure out how to word this.

    Theoretically

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    , lets say i have made a magnetic motor or device, heck I don't really know what to call it. It uses no outside electricity or power source. Nor is it started with any such power source. It is hooked up to a simple copper coil generator that is powering an LED bulb.

    Lets say It has been running for 3 months and it is keeping an LED lit.

    If, key word IF, this was TRUE, is this:

    A: Energy Transfer?

    B: Perpetual Motion?

    C: Self-Perpetuating Motion?

    D: Combo of above?

    E: Other. If other what is it?

    What i am trying to understand is exactly what has been done here if we assume what i said in the example is true.
     
  16. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    If such a device is using magnetism to produce the electricity, then that is a perpetual device. Something from nothing. Which is not possible.

    It's been mentioned before, but I'll try to keep it simple. When a magnet goes through a coil, it produces an electric current. The creation of that current imparts a force on the magnet too. This is why it wouldn't be a constant motion, you'd either need to pump energy back into making the magnet move more, or it will stop. And it certainly won't move without a push. A magnet sitting within a coil produces an electric field of 0.
     
  17. Johenric Registered Member

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    ah ic. The magnet next to the coil would be pushing back on the machine that was trying to spin it.

    Is this correct?
     
  18. Jim S Registered Senior Member

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    Johenric - it sounds like you are thinking you could make a motor by using just permanent magnets. This doesn't work - you need an outside power source. A current is generated in a coil of wire when a magnetic field cuts through it, but only while the field is moving. This movement requires some outside force.
    The opposite of this also happens, a magnetic field is generated when a current passes through a coil. Either way you need some source of power.
    When people say "perpetual motion" they usually mean a machine that runs with no outside source of power, even though "perpetual" actually means something else (forever and ever, not ending)
    Building a machine that would run with no outside power source would be pretty amazing to the world, and one that would also generate power to run a light bulb would be even more amazing. Many people have thought they could do this, to no avail.
     
  19. Johenric Registered Member

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    Yes, i know this as i have heard a lot about it but i have always wondered. So i wanted some better information then all the BS you find around the internet and i came here. I'm not arrogant and am trying to say i have the answer but at the same time i also believe our knowledge about how the universe works is also very limited.

    Now a lot of things have been said to be impossible. Some times it is true and as we all know sometimes it is very false.
    Some great discoveries and inventions are made by people that don't know that what they are trying to do has been said to be impossible. Tell people something is absolutely impossible stops many from even trying.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone is wrong and this is possible but i will still have fun trying

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    BTW i do have a magnetic device in my cellar that has a part the does not stop spinning. It is NOT hooked up to a generator though. I was wondering what would happen if i hooked it up to a generator to spin yet another magnet next to a coil and power the light.
    From what i can tell from what people are saying is that the copper coil would fight back against my spinning part and stop the magnetic device.

    I hope that made sense

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  20. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    Either something is powering it that you cannot see giving the illusion of motion without energy, or you've seen it spinning for a long time and it's on bearing or something so that the friction is minimal and takes a long tome to spin down. Maybe you can describe it a bit more, someone might know what the device is and why it's doing what you're seeing.

    That's the biggest thing. You have to continue to put in work to get something out of it. TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch)
     
  21. Jim S Registered Senior Member

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    Johenric - you don't come across as arrogant at all, and you are asking good questions. It's fun thinking about this stuff and learning how things work. Just because I, or anyone else answers doesn't mean we know it all either ( I sure don't.)
    In general, an electrical motor works because a magnet (or just a magnetic field) is being attracted by an opposite field. This opposite field has to keep switching to prevent the armature from just stopping in one place. In a real simple dc motor, the armature - the spinning part- has windings connected to a commutator. That serves as a sort of switch to keep changing the polarity, which "times" the motor. The non-moving fields can be permanent magnets, but a dc source is fed to the armature.
    Years ago, a friend of mine was determined make a motor with just permanent magnets and a real complicted system of levers to move the magnets (or shield them - not sure which). It never got real far.
    Tell us about the spinning device you have, it sounds interesting!
     
  22. Johenric Registered Member

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    Well i am honestly afraid to say to much. It is so damn simple anyone could make it and IF (BIG HUGE IF) i am on to something i don't want someone else to run with it and I'm in the dust.
    How much should i say or can i say without risk? I want to talk to so many people about it but i am really worried. That's why i am on the net. I'm not sure what i have, if anything, or what i should do next.
    I was kinda coy in my initial postings because i don't want anyone yelling at me or calling me a lair as i have seen happen to others in OTHER places.
    Again, it has only been spinning for a couple days now and it might stop. And from what i am reading it sounds like it will stop if i try to connect it to anything that could make power.
    I just really don't know what i am doing at this point. It is frustrating, exciting and kinda scary all at the same time.
     
  23. el es Registered Senior Member

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