Is Time Real? What Is Time?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Kaiduorkhon, Mar 12, 2007.

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  1. Kaiduorkhon Registered Senior Member

    'Is There Really Time?' What is Time?'


    The question of whether or not anything or consideration really exists is an endemically popular but hardly stimulating tonic for cynically industrious ennui.
    A lot of seriously proffered equivocation occurs in glib denouncements of the existence of anything, particularly with regard to whatever spatial issue of 'truth': space and/or time.
    As though Plato was not a student of Socrates, and that each and both of them did not long ago put to rest, the rasberry dispirited vanity of such allegedly 'unanswerable questions & unresolvable riddles'.

    The discarding of 'reality' has long been a ploy for those who disdain the responsibility of recognizing and acknowledging it. Pythagorean geometry and pi r as well as E= MC squared would and do exist in fact, with or without anthropomorphic existence or realization. The physical universe is as indifferent to humanity as the mathematics and philosophy that irrevocably and eternally prove 'truth', whether or not idle individuals deign to acknowledge such realities - such eternal trutns - or not...

    The following may not be the last word on the superfluous question of whether or not there is anything at all - perhaps most popularly riddled and fiddled with regarding the issue of time (the interval in space between two or more events), otherwise accounted for in the following, however unfortunately necessary qualification, evoking the placement of same in two different locations on the Science Forum. Justifying its redundancy, by popular demand from either - and both pro and con - schools of being and nothingness, for which many other sincere amateur and professional scientists and philosophers may only be grateful, if not occasionally humbled.

    Whereas, those who are immune to humility in solemn and joyous issues of reality at large: may they find facts transcending personal nemesis, megalomania, control freakism and/or ego syntonic narcissim in the following inevitable, though notably rare - patently inescapable - existential, ontological and impersonal observation:

    A Disinformational Tyme Of The Signs:

    "Time is a hallucination purveyed by the inventors of space."

    - A (popularly deluded UNREALITY INDUSTRY Sponsored)
    unglued bumpersticker mentality.
    - By K B Robertson )

    THE (Stubborn) MYTHOLOGY OF ARBITRARY ('Who knows?') SPACE & TIME:

    The present standard of measurement for space is said to have been determined by a King who extended his arm and hand and pronounced that the distance between the tip of his nose to the end of his index finger would henceforth be the definitional standard, now called a 'yard'.
    Divisible into three feet. Each foot divisible into 12 inches, each inch divisible into innumerable sub-divisions...

    This (unarguably) capricious determination of the value of space, unfortunately brought about a misunderstanding that the existence and/or value of time is likewise arbitrary (a 'human invention') - just as the - above described - value of space was determined by arbitrary means.

    Whereas, space - what we have only recently learned to be inseparable from time; philologically evolving from 'space and time', to 'space-time', would still in fact exist, whether humans existed, to observe, measure or ambivalently standardize it or not (There are arguments that there is no universe before a given person arrives here and there will be no universe when such an argumentive person leaves. Such contenders are bonkers of course).

    (Moving Right Along. Racing & weaving through and between the spacing.)

    The formal definition of time is synonymous with motion, and conversely.

    Motion occurs in space; within which space-time is the interval between two or more events. The reason Einstein modified Newtonian Classic Mechanical translation of 'Time and Space', to the Relativistic expression of space-time.

    There cannot be time without space, nor conversely - much as there is no magnetism without electricity, or electricity without magnetism: therefore equals electromagnetism. (Monopoles - electricity or magnetism independent of <non concurrent with> the other, have yet to be found or proven. The same is true of 'particles', 'black holes', the 'big bang theory', and bastardized thermodynamic interpretations lurching to the myth of an 'inevitable', 'universal entropic heat death'...)

    "Time is a hallucination purveyed by the inventors of space."
    - A (popularly deluded) bubble gum sticker mentality. Part II

    Actually: terrestrial time standards (as a down-to-earth example) are based on astronomical motions of the planet(s) through space around the sun.

    A planetary year equals its completion of a 360 degree arc - round trip - about the sun (Which, itself is bound toward Vega).

    An earth month of 30 days is 1/12th of a year.

    A week is 1/4th of that month.

    A day is 1/7th of that week.

    An hour is 1/24th of a day.

    A minute is 1/60th of an hour.

    A second is 1/60th of a minute...

    Consequently, a second of time - for unavoidable (ho hum) example - is also 18 1/2 miles of space: traveled by the earth, in its annual orbit around the sun.

    A 24 hour day is based on the rotational motion of the earth on it's own axis. The circumference of the earth is just over 24,000 miles; that is how fast the earth is spinning - per hour. Proving very simply and elegantly that space, time and motion are synonymous - no singular facet of this triangular consideration existing without the 'other two'...

    Time has come today from the past to the present and future. ABC, Moments 1, 2, 3; etceteras, squared...

    Einstein's 'Non-Absolute Relativistic 4-D space-time.'
    What it is:
    Time, furthermore, in 4 dimensions, is shorter and faster in smaller, past (microcosmic) spaces. and, slower (dilated) in future (macrocosmic) larger spaces; when compared to present time at any given moment of an observer in the eternal present: exactly between small-fast-space and large-slow - space.
    IN a 4-dimensional (physically expanding universe) a *square mile is not the same spatial size, when compared with itself; from the present: relative to (smaller, more dense) past or (larger, less dense) future 4-D expanding physical matter, and (causing the observed - non 'big bang' initiated - expansion of space (Hubbles expanding - 'red shift' -Universe.)

    Neither therefore, is 60 *miles per hour (or 186,282 m.p.s. - the speed of light; 'celeritas constant) always the same relative speed. Nor is a year, month, week, day, hour or second, always the same comparative duration in the Present ( when compared with itself) in the physically expanding universe's Past or Future.

    Proving among other things that the value of time varies with the value of space it occurs in.

    Refer (the cause of) relativistic 'time dilation.' And relativistic 'non-absolute time'.
    Slow time occurring in relatively larger spaces; fast time occurring in relatively smaller spaces.
    The relativity of time values.
    For which, until here and now, there are not even any failed explanations.

    In a 4-D (physically as well as spatially expanding) universe, the value of time and space (4-D space-time) inevitably varies, from coordinate system to coordinate system.

    The speed of light for example, is ever-increasing, while remaining constant: relative to the coordinate system in which it originates and from which it is measured.
    The value of time being covariant with the smaller and larger - earlier and later - 4-D space-times it occurs and/or is measured in."

    - Updated Excerpt from, GRAVITY IS THE 4th space-time DIMENSION:
    Electricity Is The 5th Dimension, Magnetism is the 6th Dimension
    (The Reinstatement Of Einstein's Presently Abandoned <Steady State>
    Unified Field, w'out Mathematics.) - by K B Robertson,
    Copyrights, '59, '60. '66, '70, '75, '79, '85, '88 & '99.
    (Website URL
    Condensed from 627 pages.

    Thank you for reading this missive.

    Vini Vici Entiendo
    (Hay Uno Dio Quien Es Alma Siempre)
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  3. URI IMU Registered Senior Member

    The concept of time, and thus "time" is derived from the ability of human beings to act.

    If human action did not occur the all natural motion/action is caused by thermo/electro dynamic processes and because of the cyclic nature of such applications, there is no start and no end because the line of consequence forms a loop.

    Time therefore is only a limitation on life forms, and in reality simply does not exits.
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  5. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

    time is a fiction of man, which is the tracking of heavenly bodies, which is used to set "dates," when in reality, the days of the week as well as the months are all conceptually based ideas all going back to the "period of time" it takes the earth to go around the sun.
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  7. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

    time is an illusion that things happen separately when in reality everything that has ever existed has finished their cycles already

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    Were just seeing everything is slow motion and the end has not hit us yet

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    (Just Kidding)
  8. timmbuktwo Registered Senior Member

    Otherwise you would be out of time!
  9. timmbuktwo Registered Senior Member

    Hmmmm.. very interesting. How then do you answer to "9 month human gestation period"?
  10. Kaiduorkhon Registered Senior Member

    Speaking at the 2005 Solvay conference David Gross (Nobel laureate) said:

    "We are in a period of utter confusion...These equations tell us nothing about where space and time come from and describe nothing we would recognise. At best, string theory depicts the way particles might interact in a collection of hypothetical universes...we are missing something fundamental."

    Exerpts from The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, by Thomas S. Kuhn, from paragraph 1: "Research is therefore not about discovering the unknown, but rather a strenuous and devoted attempt to force nature into the conceptual boxes supplied by professional education".

    "In the history of physical science, no published and allegedly 'recognized and acknowledged' scientific theory has been so misinterpreted, malapplied and consequently so misunderstood and underestimated as the Special and General Theories of Relativity (1905 - 1916) by Albert Einstein." - K B Robertson (KBR)
  11. Farsight

    Time is a derived effect of motion, Kaidourkhon. As is heat. And like heat, time exists. It's a measure, so it's a dimension. But it really isn't a Dimension like the Dimensions of space. We have no freedom of movement in it. A "length of time" has no length. You can read the full details in my essay TIME EXPLAINED:
  12. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    If the measurement of space is the king's arm, and the measurement of time is the earth's orbit, then both are still human-centric numbers. Just as the king's body is a single instance of a natural occurance, the earth is a single instance of a natural occurance. Why not define a second as 1/60th of 1/60th of 1/24th of 1/7th or 1/4th of 1/12th of Jupiter's orbit?

    IMO, all time exists at once; we just experience it in a linear fashion. Possibly, time rate is a factor of matter, just like density, volume, etc. Since you can't measure time w/ some matter-energy to show change, and the velocity of matter effects the rate at which time passes for it, we may want to look at time rate as we do mass.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2007
  13. Genji Registered Senior Member

  14. Lord Hillyer Banned Banned

    It's a creation. I use alternative systems of (lunisolar) dates and (decimal) time of my own invention.
  15. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

    You can't talk about time without talking about space, in fact NEVER talk about time without respect to space. If time is hallucination, then space is the hallucigen drug. All particles experience Motion thanks to space, and at different rate. We have time because everything doesn't happen at the same rate. If time is not real, space is not real.
  16. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    I say that time does exist, we use time all the while when building machines. Without time things would be still. I think the best way of viewing time is this, entropy is really time. Entropy allows for the wearing out of materials or the act of them aging, thus it is time.
  17. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

    In an ideal world, where everything is perfect, there will be no variables, everything will happen at the same time or not happen at all, and there will be only one time. Either way, ideal or elastic, time exists. Not everything exists as in matter, some as units, numbers for example.
  18. pinkiss Registered Senior Member

    your idea seems very realible because someone 20light years away would see completely different world and you might be dead or unborn

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    In my oppinion time is cycle wich has to do something with atoms or smth like that because time causes movement :shrug:
  19. Farsight

    In my opinion energy causes movement, and time is the measure of it compared to other movement. As such time "exists", but it isn't fundamental. It's a derived effect of motion, like heat.
  20. Saquist Banned Banned

    Time is the expansion and forward motion of the universe. Therefore time has a speed many times that of light. Thus time is real.
  21. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

    Time can be said to 'exist' such that entities/objects exist in a different (quantum?) state at any given unit of progression. The progression also is irreversible at least best of humanity's current knowledge.

    The measurement of time however is a human invention.
  22. Kaiduorkhon Registered Senior Member

    Chatha's post #12, above, fairly sums up the issue:
    "You can't talk about time without talking about space."
    Time is synonymous with motion. It can be defined in several ways. "Time is the interval between two or more events". There can be no motion without there being a space within which motion occurs. There is no known condition of space about or within which there is no motion. Hence, the interchangeability of the terms 'space and time', and their evolved expression as 'space-time', since the two are found to be inseparable. Space-time exists with or without being measured or otherwise calibrated by human - or any other sentient - beings. That is, in the qualifying words of Enterprise-D in post #18, above:
    "The measurement of time... is a human invention."
    The operative word here is 'measurement'...
    Space-time exists and happens - motion occurs within space - and is existentially indifferent to whether it is measured or otherwise evaluated or not.

    Conclusion: Time is real. It is motion of or within space; whereas there is no spatial conditon bereft of motion (Absolute Zero - the complete absence of heat or moton - so far unachieved and unobserved).

    Moreover, until further notice, there is no known condition of space that does not contain or represent motion.
    - K. B. Robertson ('Is time real? What is time?)
  23. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Kaiduorkhon: but measurement of what? Space? Or Matter/Energy within space? Both?
    How do you measure time with reflection to change in spacetime itself?

    How fast does time progress? according to relativity, it moves at the same speed for each observer, but differently between observers; from what I understand, because of how matter bends the fabric of space/time as velocity increases.

    So if time is a measurement of matter/energy through space, and the velocity of matter/energy determines the time rate to an outside observer, then it's time tied as tightly to matter/energy as it is to Space?

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