who me? Au contraire!, I have studied isalm & found it wanting, no long math needed here, just the facts, and a little logic, and boom, the house of cards that is islam, falls down just like the WTC did. btw, I think the title of the 19 most closed-minded people went to the 9/11 hijackers, hands down, all time. too bad that the only virgins they will get, are satan's little jinnsPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! peace, love
A quick summary: A) Embryology i) The original argument, of developmental prenatal structures, is wrong. ii) Galen and others wrote about stagewise human/animal development in much the same manner a thousand years prior? iii) The notion of “really hearing” “really seeing” “really understanding” has not been resolved as 7x7 you don’t want to say what you think “hearing” “seeing” and “understanding” is, where is occurs, when it begins, or anything else about it. So this is a red-herring and is going nowhere. I will say this, I personally think that to “really see” or “really hear” you need to have a brain that “really understands” those electrical nerve inputs as “hearing” or “seeing” and as such “understanding” would out of necessity HAVE to occur first. Does an eye “see” if it’s cut out of your head sitting on a table? I don’t think so. B) Cosmological evidence i) I didn’t get into this one BUT I was wondering if the Qur’an says anything about the Beginning of the Universe? Does it say that the Universe started via a singular event (the Big Bang) as it is understood by many today? C) Honey i) Do we agree that eating honey can harm some people? People that are allergic to honey anyway. So telling people to eat honey will cause harm (even death) to some people. ii) Do we agree that Honey used for medicinal purposes was well known throughout the world from China to Roma for at least a thousand before the Qur’an was written? D) Fly i) I’m really not sure in the point of this verse. It kind of seems pointless as of now. The notion that a fly could carry disease was surely known everywhere in the world. I mean flies and maggots tend to bread on putrid rotting flesh. If that’s the message it is akin to saying “see those dark clouds over there – I bet it’s signifies rain” (it’s true - but so what? Certainly not miraculous) So that just leaves the one wing has a cure and the other wing has a disease – which just isn’t true. And that’s why, I don’t really see what the verse is getting at? E) Moon God i) There was a moon God with a name very similar to Allah worshipped in Arabia pre-Islam? The Kabala was a sacred place pre-Islam to said Allah-sounding Moon God?
Use the following CRITERIA when dealing with Islamist 'scientific miracle' propagandas: (a) Is this verse really saying what you think its saying? If so, then, (b) Is the message of this verse NOT observable by the naked senses? If so, then, (c) Was this verse written WITHOUT knowledge of past or existing works at that time? If so, then, (d) Is this particular verse scientifically correct?
Salam Alaikom to all brothers in Islam... you know what, all you aethists and non believers are sad...you have no life, no faith, no guidelines, what are your rules in life? you are astray, with no base or conscience, no feeling of right or wrong, no FEAR. what do you fear, the cops? who do you think made you, made everything around you? if you seriously think that everything was created out of nowhere, then you have no grasp over anything, how the hell is anything a result of nothing? have you ever seen a chair just "happen", or materilalize, NO, someone or smthing has to build it. humans are the most complicated creature or thing ever to exist, does it not confuse you when you are telling yourself that you just "happened"...logic is the key to narrow minded, ignorant, illogical, undereducated people like you, something or someone has to have created the first human, a supernatural power must have...that is the first fact you must grasp before you talk or argue about anything related to Quran, the Bible, revelations, religion, or anything as such. I suggest you go think things out, who made you should be the main heading of your thoughts...until then, and until you have realized that there must be a greater God that has created you and everything else...you should not involve yourself so much in such discussions... Go ahead, think for once instead of sitting and rippping pages and pages of sad excuses of defying the Holy Quran off the web....think... Salam Alaikom
This is kind of the opposite of what I was saying recently. Do you know that I have no rules in life? No conscience? Who told you that? The Qur'an? Do you know me personally? You don't, do you? Have you ever seen an invisible, infinite deity? Can you explain how he can think, feel, exist? I agree that I have no explanation for the universe, although I suppose one could make the argument that there was "something" before the "Big Bang", or that the universe as a whole is somehow eternal (although the evidence for what we see in the observable universe supports more of a Big Bang theory I think). Then again, what will science think in 100 years? Can you explain to me how a being who is so intelligent to have created the universe can just "exist"? And how he could just "exist" from eternity in the past to eternity in the future? I don't see atheism or theism as really being more logical than the other. But, that being said, welcome to the forum. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If we atheists have no guidlines, and you Muslims do, why are there Muslim terrorists? Why do you kill school children? Why did you knock down our Towers? Why do you kill Israelis? Is it A) because your God told you to B) because you're just people, and people do really bad shit all the time, despite your belief in a anything
I'd also like to post-humously thank the Muslim scholars who perserved Hellenistic thought until the West was ready for it again. Thanks.
anonymous2, i can safely say all these things because of the way you people behave, i dont need to see or know you to understand that you have no faith. hence, if you have no faith or belief or fear, then what guidelines do you have? you say in most of your posts just by disagreeing with us! lol. buy hey, i might be wrong about you being astray etc, please enlighten me and tell me what your guidelines and faith consist of as an aethist. Roman, for one thing, i do not agree with terrorists who attack innocent people for no reason. and i think the WTC attacks were a tragic incident that should have never happened, these people are extreme muslims and think that Islam calls to terrorism, but Islam really calls for peace, and only war in the case of defending oneself or defending one's religion. therefore, i think those people are not right and i do not side by killers who use Islam as an excuse to do such things... but if we are talk about murdering and so on, then what's your opinion about the hundreds of innocent muslim palestenians being killed every day and every week? the muslims being persecuted every day by israelis who are vicious murderers? the muslims' homes who are being destroyed with bulldozers every day in front of their eyes? the muslim families being torn apart every day because of israeli bastards? what do you call that?
anonymous2, I cannot answer that question at this point, because this is what we muslims call "'elm al ghaib". Allah is the only one that knows the future fully and He is the only one that holds the future. In regards of eternity and who created God, how he is always existent etc, these questions cannot be explained by the normal human mind. our minds are not able to comprehend such things because God is the only one with full, truthful knowledge of everything. We do not know such things because it is out of our boundaries, our capabilities and our requirements of knowledge. it is more than we need to know about God. we do know that Allah has always been existent, forever, and we are nothing next to Him and what he can do, not only this, but "Time" in itself is nothing next to him. My knowledge of such things are extremely limited, i am only 15, but i am sure the muslim sheikhs know more of this. if any muslims here know more about this, it would help a lot if you posted more in reply to anonymous' question of eternity and God. One question for you if you don't mind... Why do you need to know how God was created? isn't everything around you enough to prove to you his powers? does it not convince you? Allah is the almighty, obviously we will not know everything about him. It's like having a very strict boss, or in my case, a strict teacher who does not reveal anything about themself until you are able to attain a certain level in your marks, then at the end of the year, they will change their treatment and let you in on everything about them. All these questions about Allah will be answered once judgement day arrives and we see Him. i know this is a crap example but i hope you understand what im trying to get at here.
kmt271: I'd call it human nature. I may even call it justice, in the simple eloquent justice that humans only realyl understand– force. Your hypothesis is that the presence of Islam causes peace, some people's hypothesis is that the presence of Islam causes violence. However, I disagree in that religion has no affect on human behaviour. My null hypothesis assumes that there is no significant difference between the people who commit atrocities and what faith the adhere too. However, if a statistical analysis was performed, I'd be willing to bet that there'd be a predominance of religious people killing others, simply because there are for more theists than non-theists. Obviously the presence of Islam is not a mitigating factor in peace, since there are many Muslims committing violent acts. So the Muslims who kill people aren't really Muslims, is what you're claiming, right? But Islam hasn't prevented these people from killing others (in fact, it has inspired them to do so), I'd say that the presence of Islam does not affect people's violent tendencies one way or the other.
it is HARAM in islam to kill or murder any other human!! how could you possibly say that Islam inspires muslims to murder and encourages them. Look at some statistics, how many muslims are there around the world man? how many of them are known to commit violent terrorist acts? can you put a ratio for that...i assure you the murderers will be a minority, i call them muslims who do not fully understand the real meaning of their religion, especially the aspect of "jihad". then i want you to do the same with israelis How many israelis are there around the world, how many are killing palestenians every day or contributing to these acts...i assure you the ratio will be a lot more shocking to you, most israelis are vicious murderous tyrants walking earth. Thank you, just to note, you guys are amazingly fast with replying to posts! wow! lol
kmt271: I'm not trying to single Islam out. Regardless of what's HARAM, you've gotta face up that people who call themselves Muslims kill people, and that there's probably more Muslim and Christian people out there who kill others than there are atheists who are killing people. I'm not saying that Islam is the causal effect that leads to violent crime, I'm just saying that not being Muslim will cause violence. I'm just making the case of non-cause. As much as you're religion is a religion of love and happiness and peace, there are Muslim nations that commit atrocities in the name of Islam. Since these violent acts occur in Muslim nation at the same rate or a greater rate than nations that are not Islamic, there's no empirical proof that Islam is a requisite of peace. Is buring a woman up to her neck and stoning her an acceptable punishment for adultery? If women are trapped in a burning building, but they aren't properly covered according to Muslim law, should they stay inside and die?
You're stereotyping in my opinion-"The way you people behave". First, I don't consider myself an atheist, but an agnostic. Some may not acknowledge or care about that distinction. And even if I were an atheist, so what? Atheists can have guidelines too. To you, I'm an atheist. Then again, to the Romans, the Christians were atheists, too, weren't they? I acknowledge one less God than you do. You deny the existence or the classification of all other "gods" as "God", right? It's true that I lack faith, but why do you think that means I have no guildelines or that I have no conscience because I lack faith? If you're wanting me to list off a bunch of specific rules which apply to all situations, I'm not going to do that for you. For instance, if I said "Lying is wrong" (which I generally agree with), I can then say that there can be legitimate reasons for people to lie. Don't you think there are? If you were put in a situation where you had to lie in order to save a life of someone who is innocent, would you do it? The Bible says Rahab the harlot lied, but yet she was commended, and I'm assuming because it was based on a "higher good". As for your question about "Who created God?", that's not what I'm asking. I know the idea is that God is "uncreated". My question is, HOW can an uncreated being just "exist"? Theism just puts the questions onto God instead of the universe, from what I can see.
This is almost comical, we disagree therefore are sad and have no life no guidelines etc, but since im here i shall educate the uneducated, the rules in my life are quite possably no different to many of yours, but rules is the wrong term, you have rules layed down to you by a book which you believe to be the word of god and infallable, i have moral guidelines which i came to on my own time in my own way through my own experiences, i had no book to tell me how to live i made my own decisions, in fact i probably have more free thought than you do. Whilst your opinions are welcome, expect to be corrected, many atheists have fear, i do not, i have nothing to fear, i have a feeling of right and wrong, why should i need a god to decide that? I may be astray by your terms, but to me you are a sheep, and i'd rather live a day as a tiger than a lifetime as a sheep. Made me? my parents of course, made man? man evolved and wasnt made, also i shall point out here that the things around us are no proof of a god, shall i give an example? theres a chair in my room, is that proof it was made by a chairmaker? not at all anyone could have made it, theres the flaw in your logic. How the hell was god the result of nothing? O and who said we were the result of nothing? Another of your opinions me thinks. Im sure there can be a debate about this somewhere but to be honest its irrelavent. Pot, kettle, black, need i say more? And where is your evidence for this baseless statement? Wait, before we can argue that god does or doesnt exist, we must accept he does? That weakass arguement is the best you can come up with to get us to believe??? Well, i think we should be fair here and say that until you learn that god may not exist you should not involve yourself in discussions, or form opinions, about atheism, can you see the flaw in your logic yet? Nows time for a question me thinks, why is your religion more true than any other? And where does your evidence for this come from, thankyou for your time.
Most of the arguments all of you are opposing me with are basically your opinions. And whoever said the chair in my room example, you're just plain stupid aren't you? look on the back of your chair, you will probably find a place of production or even a company, then take the chair to malaysia or wherever the hell the chair was made, find the manufacturer, they will tell you that they made the chair. there! you just traced a chair back to who made it, you know and i know that someone/smthing MUST have made the chair, even if you haven't seen them do it. its the same with God, but in this case, you can only observe what is around you and logically comclude that someone must have made all this. jst admitt it, your logic is a disgrace. Do you want to know what Islam is the right religion? simply because in the Quran it states, God will keep this book from any changes or twists as such that the previous holy books have undergone. from 1400 years ago, has a letter in the Quran been changed? no. and its proven, take a visit to saudi arabia where the first copies of the Quran are preseved and kept, and compare it to a 2004 printing of the Quran, find me one error or change. that is why the Quran is the final, unchanged true word of God. Aside from that, the Quran is a challenge. Allah has challenged any human being in the 7th Century and to this day to come up with one line that is at the same level of the Quran...note that arabs in the 7th centruy were the world's beste writers...not a single person could defy the Quran by making a sentence remotely equivelant to that of the Quran. here's a challenge for you, make me a SENTENCE that equals a sentence in the Quran, something that contains so much meaning in so little context, something that is absolutely flawless, grammatically, logicaly,historically, poeticaly, whatever u like...make me one... not only this, Islam is just so logical. every single aspect of it HAS a logical reason for it. cleansing before prayer, pilgrimage, hejab, all have reasons to them, and good judgemental reasons to them too. these reasons are only a tiny fraction of the amount of reasons that prove Islam is the most logical and true religion...i mentioned this before, im a just 15, just a normal muslim who attends to the basic needs of my religion, please dont expect me to know as much as some of the other adults in this forum... thanks
kmt271: and yours is not: obviously intelligence is something you could only dream about, do you know, you put one foot infront of the other, or are you still learning that. no in the 7th century the chinese where the best writers. exactly, go home and grow up first sonny. and what logical about this, qu-ran:Mutual Disillusion 64:14-15 , Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation.
you see, the thing about you people is that u take one sentence in the quran without reading the part before or after it...you're so stupid and where the hell did you come from pavloscraphead? that line: "there is not a single aspect of it that has a logical reason for it." was a TYPO, what i meant was: "there is not a single aspect of it that does NOT have a logical reason for it." but you're too dumb to figure that out aren't you... did you know there's an ayyah in the Quran that says "Do not approach prayer", shocking isnt it? NO, because you have to read on!! it goes like this when u read on: "Do not approach prayer as long as you are drunk" See the difference and know your limits, dont ever call me sonny, understand you shithead?
hahahahahah you're sooo predictable pavlos!! hahahah I stuck the translation of that ayyah you gave me into a search engine and guess what the first result was!! omg, it was an INCORRECT translation of that ayyah in an ANTI-ISLAMIC CHRISTIAN website!! this is hilarious, is this all you could come up with, going to anti-islamic webpages and ripping fake translations of them...you need to get a life man...and some intelligence! the correct translation is: O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. this is a great piece of advice, it is saying that your enemies can be amongst the closest people to you, even your wife or your children or your cousins can be your enemies! it is not saying that your wives and children ARE your enemies like you claim: "Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation." you idiot, think! and when Allah says beware of them, that applies to the enemies, not your children or wives... In the 7th century, you never knew who would be a traitor of war, a traitor against you, who knew who hated you...it could be the closest person to you but you were not aware of it, its even the same today. dont you think your wife could possibly be your enemy? she might want your money and wealth, is that not possible?? now do you understand the REAL meaning of this ayyah in the Quran....
I guess that means we are at a standoff since thats all you present, also i'd like to add do our opinions have less weight than yours? Is my opinion that i have some morals less valued than your opinion that atheists have none? This might be why a discussion would be fruitless. Please show me the stamp on earth that says 'made by god' Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! and you have the cheek to call someone elses logic a disgrace, your making one big jump from earth exists to god must exist, o and by the way, no form of identification on the chair, so sorry to dissappoint you but thats stuffed your logic up hasnt it?? Well, since it says in it that it wont change, i think someone might notice if it did change and go hang on a minute god said it wouldnt change, and that'd stuff it up as a religious book, but still, 1400 year old information should make it easier to prove wrong. Im afraid thats an opinion that it contains much meaning in little context, and who would be the judge of whether or not someone can come up with a sentence to match the Quran? You? Fair enough that you think so, im sure many people disagree though, theres logical things in all religions however, and logic in atheism. Also i do note you ignored a bit of what i said before so maybe for your benefit i shall repeat some of it just incase you missed it. If we cant possibly be the result of nothing, how come god can be? Where is your evidence that something must have created us? And now i would like to ask if you have read all of this thread before you posted?
