Israel approves plan to uproot 30,000 Bedouin

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Sep 11, 2011.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I have yet to hear of Iranians stripping Iranian Jews of any "territory" and I am 100% sure I have already debunked the myth of Jewish refugees from Arab lands

    But since we are dealing with people with extremely short term memories, here it is again:

    So yeah, feel free to propound on this myth if you wish, but remember, there are no takers for that enterprise.
     
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  3. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    No, you just keep quoting the same three or four people who insisted they were personally happy leaving their homes and moving to Israel, as if they spoke for nearly a million others. If you're going to look at things like Wikipedia articles on Jewish refugees from Muslim countries (including Iran) and quote the sources only for the parts which agree with your storyline (or other sources parroting the exact same words nearly verbatim), then people like me are going to spot your hypocrisy and call you on it every time, or simply dismiss your incessant whining altogether.

    There are indeed takers, and there will be many more takers if the UN decides to step back all the way to 1948 in an effort to find true justice. At present, there's no point in pressing such claims, because most Israelis are satisfied with the status quo. Hint: When two peoples have a dispute, and one side outnumbers the other in the range of 50-1, it's kind of tough for the little guy to rack up the bulk of the crimes, so be careful what you wish for.

    If you don't mind, please kindly f--- off with the trolling and ad homs. You don't like it when others suspect you of having an Islamic supremacist agenda of your own, so grow up and act like it for once.
     
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    interesting, capt
    could you elaborate on that? seems an easy enough proposition, yes?"

    In 1970 the Libyan government issued new laws which confiscated all the assets of Libya's Jews, issuing in their stead 15 year bonds. However, when the bonds matured no compensation was paid. Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi justified this on the grounds that "the alignment of the Jews with Israel, the Arab nations' enemy, has forfeited their right to compensation."


    i want compensation!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
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  7. Gustav Banned Banned

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    i read bork's wiki link and am outraged. any peace plan should resolve the jewish refugee issue with a right of return or compensation

    In 2009, Israeli lawmakers introduced a bill into the Knesset to make compensation for Jewish refugees an integral part of any future peace negotiations by requiring compensation on behalf of current Jewish Israeli citizens, who were expelled from Arab countries after Israel was established in 1948 and leaving behind a significant amount of valuable property. In February 2010, the bill passed its first reading. The bill was sponsored by MK Nissim Ze'ev (Shas) and follows a resolution passed in the United States House of Representatives in 2008, calling for refugee recognition to be extended to Jews and Christians similar to that extended to Palestinians in the course of Middle East peace talks


    that is the way to go. "true justice". where does this bill stand now?

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  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why stop there? There are some Moors owed territory in Spain as well and I'm willing to bet there are plenty of Muslims who have a homeland in Greece as well...

    Lets tie it all to the Palestinian self determination in their own lands - so what if none of it has anything to do with them?
     
  9. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    You misread - when she refers to "the Turks" there, she wasn't talking about modern-day Turkey. She was talking about the Ottoman Empire. Specifically, she is insisting the the relationship between church and state in the modern-day USA is identical to that in the Ottoman empire.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Is it possible to remain a bigot and amicably communicate and connect with the people you're racist against? Or are you suggesting that through communication people stop being racist?

    As you know, I don't believe in race, to think race exists is to me a problem of education. As such, from my point of view, lack of communication is a symptom. The underlying cause is the ideology. In the I-P problem it's the type of religious paradigm children are being taught to believe is true. Which FMPOV boarder so close to real racism that I sometimes hear people refer to Jews (and Muslims) as if they ARE a race. Now, that's interesting considering race itself doesn't exist. That's how deep 1000s of years of these religious paradigms have brought society.

    They've engrained racist-like thinking more deeply than ever into the collective psyche. Take you for example. Well educated, well traveled. Yet because of your upbringing even you think taxing people differently and restricting employment is fine - so long as it's based on your religious paradigm. Bigot against skin color or religious belief and you can damn well bet to have dysfunctional segment of society.

    I suggest attacking the root of the problem, communication will follow.
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    You are perhaps confusing the fact that race is not a biological construct, with its non-existence as such. Social constructs exist, and have real power. We wouldn't be talking about race, if it didn't exist in the first place.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yes of course. Racism is a social construct. Like any social construct it is subject to challenges presented through changes in thought. It may not happen in a single generation but people can move from a thought process where blacks have low IQ and do not deserve civil rights to one where they are able to vote for a black man to become President less than 50 years after that /deadpan

    The process is theorised as follows:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2011
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

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    i heard rumors of a grand conspiracy... a cabal of ancient palestinians and their vassal states in the m.e doing their bidding

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    perhaps bork can shed some light??
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    OK. I don't know much about church/state relations in the Ottoman Empire days* but (falsely?) assumed that too was very similar to the early days of US. (I assumed that as religious toleration was quite rare in that era - The rack, the merchant of Venus, etc. were more typical.)

    For example did you know that Maryland has as its identifying slogan: "The Free State"?**

    That is because it was the only one / the first / in which you were legally free to choose your religion. All the others had a state sanctioned religion. In some of the New England states, a wrong choice in this would get you drowned if you were too slow to proclaim your error / accept the "truth" / as they dunked you under water.

    Obviously, not many made the "wrong choice." - Conforming was the rule.

    --------------
    * As you say the Ottoman rulers were quite different from early US, and I know nothing about them on this question, but I do know the early US was very intolerant of other religions, state-by state, you must be informing me that the Ottoman rulers allowed free choice and practice of religion.

    ** The important early founders of Maryland were all Catholics. - A generally forbidden religion in other states. - They passed the "free to chose religion laws" as a measure of self protection.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
  15. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    6,411
    Greece was occupied for centuries by Turkey, so if any Muslims who were there beforehand and their descendants were unfairly expelled, or there were integrated Greek-speaking Muslims who got cleansed after the Turks were sent packing, they're entitled to make a claim. As for the Moors, they should press Spain for compensation for their troubles, but they still have lands of their own in North Africa which were stolen from others, so they can't plead poverty or statelessness when making their case.

    In the Palestinian case, the Palestinians don't have an independent country, and the Jews would not be able to protect their own sovereignty, economy and rights as a minority in a land that would have more than double its current population if all Palestinian refugees immigrated there. So if the Palestinians were to receive citizenship and access to all of Israel for their troubles, on top of financial compensation, and to use this as a means to put an end to Jewish prosperity and self-defense in Israel, then the Jews and Palestinians have a right to press Arab and European states for the crimes they suffered and the lands which have been collectively stripped from them, so as to permit the establishment of a functional united state.

    If an Arab country keeps three generations of refugees locked up and forbids them from meaningful chances to integrate and contribute to the larger society, then those Arab countries should be held responsible for the poverty and population explosion which resulted instead, and give land to a unified Israel to help offset the problem. Example: if 80% of Jordan's citizens are claiming the right to Israeli citizenship, then there's simply no point in recognizing Jordan's independence from the lands they claim belong to them.

    We want solutions that don't empower religious psychotards by making them think only their enemies will face justice for their crimes while Prophet AngryBeard (pbuh) approves of theirs instead.

    It has everything to do with them, and always has from the moment the region was conquered by the Arabs in the first place. If they want self-determination in their own lands, that's why the world is pushing to recognize a state on the 1967 borders, and you should stop trying to derail that effort by making it the starting point for another catastrophic war where the civilians you claim to love are guaranteed to be the biggest victims.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Well, yes, so we should teach people that the biological construct doesn't exist and over time the social construct will disappear of it's own accord. Few Americans think Germans, Italians, Irish and French are different races.

    So you are in favor of educating children that race (the biological construct) does not exist and that race (the social construct) is not the correct way to think about people.

    How about educating children that God (the supernatural construct) doesn't exist? Such that over time there'd be no "Jews" and no "Muslims" and one less (major) hurdle to overcome in the I-P dispute. Seems reasonable to me, especially as God (similar to race) only exists as a social construct**. But, you do not support that do you SAM? No, you don't. Neither would most religious Jews in Israel. Which is why I said, the I-P problem will remain, and it will. Just as racism remains wherever that social construct is present.




    ** NOTE: We could (if you insist on some sort of supernatural social construct) instead teach a more tolerant superstition. I suggest polytheism with benign nature deities.



    I wonder why Arabs chose fundamental Christianity? Were they Aping the Byzantine?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    But its not relevant what Americans think about the French and Germans. What do the French and Germans think about each other and themselves? What do Americans think about Asians, blacks, whites?

    I don't think you can teach people that race does not exist - I don't know if you've ever communicated with children, but they are race blind. They do not "see" that the differences between black and white are relevant.


    I don't think religion is a social construct. Its treated as a social construct and parts of it may be, but overall, it seems that if people don't believe in one kind of theism, they adopt some other kind of belief - like paganism or wicca. Another problem with people abandoning religion is they don't have children. I don't know why this is but it is true. All societies where people start abandoning religion, the population becomes lower and other religious people immigrate to fill in the gaps - so religion it would seem is required for survival. Menawhile, studies show that people are who are spiritually fulfilled are happier and more ethical [1 2 3 4 ]


    You could - why not? But I'm not sure why you think polytheism is more tolerant, since all tribal ethnocentric societies are both polytheist and racist.


    I don't think Arabs ever chose Christianity. They were exposed to the Romans and Indians and Egyptians all of whom were polytheists. So its easy to see why they would be pagans and emulate these influences. It is more likely that they were exposed to nomadic Jews hence their renditions of Jesus and Mary being completely different from those of Christians. Of course when I say Arabs here I'm talking about the South or Yemen and not about Sham or the Levant, where people were exposed to Christianity before becoming Arabised.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  18. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    What are you trying to say? Arab Christian communities chose Christianity before they became Arab. Not saying there were not any converts post Arabization but most of the conversions were to Islam including from Christian to Muslim. There was a diversity of Middle Eastern Christianity that underwent changes over the centuries.

    Fundamental Christianity? How do you define Fundamental Christianity?

    I guess that sentence you wrote must have some context earlier in the thread that I don't understand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It's not that "Arabs" copied the bible when they invented the qur'an, it's that the qur'an is a bible. Islam is a sect of Christianity. What I wonder is why? I suppose aping Byzantium would have been natural, kind of like the Islamic "Republic" of Iran or the People's "Republic" of China. The "Caliphate" with a "Caliph" and a "perfect" revelation.

    Seems like a clear case of monkey see monkey do.

    Good question. I'd think many would see different "races". But, I'm American and I don't.

    Actually children do view "race". But, it's not race, it's having higher percentage of like-genes. Kind of like this: They look me, I should social bond with them. Children have race-bias from age 3. Unless they have Williams syndrome, then they don't.

    It's obviously genetic but children can be taught NOT to have race-bias. That's the amazing thing about the human brain, it's ability to learn.
    We're talking about society and Religion - it must be a social construct.

    (Oddly enough, quadraphonics didn't call you on it

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    Well, Paganism and Wicca are religions (aka theisms) and so one could argue people were raised to be Wiccan. Also, many people don't think about life without religion. They just assume they havn't found the right one. It doesn't occur to some people to have no belief.

    Like race-bias, humans may have a hard-wiring for superstition (if that's what you're getting at). Type I errors are beneficial many times .

    That has to do with wealth. Poorer people tend to be ignorant and ignorant people tend to be superstitious.

    On average, poorer people breed much more than wealthy people.


    and I said we can make allowances for superstition. Just not the one that causes 2000 years of killing one another with no abate.

    Historically Christianity, Islam and Judaism do not reach a compromise with other non-Abrahamic faiths. History will show these ideologies seek out and destroy non-Abrahamic faiths. Look at what Justinian did to the last Greek academies (probably ushering in the Dark Ages for Europe). And of course these faiths attempt to destroy one another as well. Buddhism OTOH seems to mesh quite well with other faiths, as evidenced by the fact the other faiths still exist (ex: Taoism, Shinto, etc...). Where's the Arab polytheists you were talking about? I'll tell you where, crushed under the boot, a boot stomping on the human face, forever (Orwell

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    Where are the Greek polytheists? How did the Europeans treat the Native Americans and their faiths. Like shit, that's how.

    Usually they do their killing over resources and their misconstrued notion of race. What you don't find is one group kill because the Old Oak Tree God wants the Rainbow God diced.

    Whereas you WILL find Christians killing Muslims because Muslims make Baby Jesus Cry.

    Well, you're wrong. The qur'an is 80% biblical. How else can you explain that?

    What? Magic?

    You're thinking of modern Christians. 1500 years ago there were a lot of differing Christian secs. One of those obviously evolved into modern day Islam. I'm not suggesting Judaism wasn't also an influence, obviously "Christians" converted to Judaism back when Jews proselytized and this evolved into Christianity.

    It is an interesting bit of history. Too bad the Saudis destroyed much of the evidence for a rich polytheistic history in place of Islamic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You don't see Asians and blacks? Or you don't consider the differences relevant? Because those are two very different things.

    I did not say children do not view race. I said they do not view the differences in race as relevant. i.e. if there are two people named Johnson and one of them is black the child of either party will likely think they share the same name because they are related not understanding what race means.

    We could talk about sex and society, evolution and society, intelligence and society. A social construct is a social mechanism. A perception by society. Like say, heterosexuality. Or marriage. Or gender. Religion is pretty much the same across all social paradigms. No one ever confuses religion with anything else. Parts of it, like the social institutions may be a social construct. But religion itself, well, I don't think I can conclude it as a social mechanism. Let me think about it some.

    So the Soviet Union broke up and found God and the church because? And Americans have more children than the Danish because?

    Or it could be construed that way. I mean why are the EU fighting the Taliban? Is it because they are atheists?

    The Quran is a continuation of the Jewish testaments - all references to Christianity are references from a Jewish point of view and in the third party. The Quran is mostly Abraham and Moses and some Mohammed. There is nothing from the Gospels in it.

    Actually, I'm thinking of the fact that there is no reference to Christians or Christianity in the Quran except to denigrate their adoption of Jesus as a savior and there is no reference to Christians in the literature and poetry and Hadith of Arabs until you get to the Sham
     
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    palestine was never conquerered by the arabs in the sense you mean. arabs have always been there. trying to pretend arabs are foriegn to palestine is one of the reason the conflict has dragged on for so long.
     
  22. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    CptBork/pjdude
    What is justice?
    Does justice matter or does "facts on the ground" AKA "might makes right" , "law of the jungle" matter more? We outlawed anarchy, stealing and murder because anarchy, stealing and murder leads to more and more anarchy, stealing and murder which cause people to stop making products and stop farming and stop storing for the future as anything invested in the future will just be stolen. The lack of investment into the future negates the advantage that humans have over animals and makes humans live in the moment as animals do.

    When does "Right of Return" expire? Do the refugees foreign born children get to return? Does the tenth generation born abroad get to return? What if there has been intermarriage and the DNA and culture of tenth generation born abroad is only 25% descended from DNA and culture of the the original refugees?

    What rights do religious, historical and patriotic beliefs give an ethnicity to control a land in which they do not live? Should the Serb belief that Serbs originated in Kosovo give Serbs rights over Kosovo or should the mixture of recent and ancient, Albanian legal, and illegal Immigrants to Kosovo rule Kosovo because they are the majority in Kosovo.

    Should the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious beliefs matter when deciding who deserves the right to live in Israel/Paelestine?

    If a man with a gun intimidates your cousin into abandoning the pasture that you own, and then this mans uncle is the police chief and wont protect your cousin, and this man works hard and spends his time and money building a house on your cousin's pasture and his children are born in this house, and then you become the judge and police chief but you want to be just and fair; How do you resolve this conflict?
     
  23. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    OK so we you talking about the ancient Arabs of the Mecca and Medina area not ancient not yet Arabized people the people of current Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Egypt and Libya.

    What all religions including primitive tribal religions and fundamentalist atheism have in common with each other which is absent in agnosticism is dislike for the unknown and a fear of the lack of control and disorder. Religions bit not atheism also create a delusional indoctrinated motivation to persevere when perseverance seems pointless.

    I have read (can't trust authors and historians and people like me at sciforums too much because they make stuff up and repeat things other made up) that this Mecca and Medina region was plagued by disorder, crime, out of control lust and general criminality at the time of Mohamed. I read that the Mecca and Medina area at the time of Mohamed had a number of "primitive" (whose to judge primitiveness in compared religions) religions and also had large minorities of Christians and large minorities of Jews.

    Yemen further South had even more Jews. Who were these Jews? Where did they come from? To what degree did pre-Arabized Yemenis convert to Judaism and why?

    The Christians in the Mecca, Medina, Red Sea and Arabian Desert as well as the ancestors of today's Ethiopian, Egyptian and Iraqi Christians did not get there Christianity from Byzantine Christianity. The got their Christianity from a Christianity older than Byzantine Christianity. First Christianity was Jewish then Christianity was a major religion in the Grekofied Mediterranean prior to the existence of the Byzantine Empire and prior to the Roman/Byzantine official acceptance and later embrace of Christianity.


    Byzantine official Christianity could never control the schisms in Christianity even within the borders of the Byzantine empire. If you study the history of Christianity in Lebanon, Syria and Turkey you find a complex history.

    The Christians of the Mecca and Medina area were never under Byzantine rule. Egypt probably had as much influence on Mecca as Syria did.

    Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism. Middle Judaism was partially an offshoot of Zoroastrianism.

    The evolution of the Abrahamic religions is aping imitation in the way all internal combustion Vehicles just ape and imitate other internal combustion vehicles.

    Islam incorporates Jesus but it also was influenced directly by Judaism without Christianity as a middle man. Islam was influenced by it's environment and what it needed to appeal to people with problems specific to their time and place. Islam incorporates the Kaaba which is from Mecca's non-Abrahamic religions.

    The Prayer times to the best of my knowledge is not borrowed from Christianity or Judaism. Islam has it's own flavors that are not used in most Christian sects and also Islam tastes different from other Islam depending on where and how it is cooked.

    Ideas and music usually are borrowed reassembling into different shapes pieces of older ideas and older music but that does not make them plagiarism.

    Islam is no more a sect of Christianity than Christianity is a sect of Judaism and is only four times as much a sect of Christianity as Judaism is a sect of Zoroastrianism



    Kaaba
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011

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