Israel approves plan to uproot 30,000 Bedouin

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Sep 11, 2011.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure how the average American paying 1000 dollars in tax to maintain religious institutions is a "donation" but hey, if you don't object to being a dhimmi, I have no complaints. It is however interesting that while, under the Caliphate, zakat was paid by ALL Muslims, of all ages, gender etc who qualified, the jiziya tax was only paid by those non-Muslim men who were of military age in return for an exemption from military duty. The Ottoman empire did not charge taxes from those who did volunteer for military duty, like the Janisars with whom the Sultan stood in line to receive his paycheck.

    So basically, you pay 1000 dollars in exchange for NOTHING as compared to them. How is that for being taxed for your [lack of] religious beliefs?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Congratulations, you sound exactly like an Israeli Zionist. I'm sure you've more than justified plenty enough reason why religious discrimination is all well and good. The brief British colonization bad, the centuries long Ottoman colonization good.
    Up is Down.
    War is Peace.
    Freedom is Slavery.
    Ignorance is Strength.
    Allah is Great.


    Yup, I got chya. Loud and Clear.


    Expect decades more war between Zionist religious bigots, Christian religious bigots and Muslim religious bigots. Your inability to recognize immoral Zionist behavior is no different than a Muslims in ability to recognize immoral Islamic bigotry. They are identical. Thus, the Bedouins will be moved off their lands and into reservations. You know, because it's good for them.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Guess you don't like being a dhimmi in the US much. Yeah, it sucks to pay thousands of dollars so that those religious organisations [considered as individuals under US corporate law] can dedicate their hundreds of millions to religious evangelism.

    Hmm I don't see any "war between bigots" at the moment. What I do see is the Israelis - the ONLY democracy in the Middle East - ethnically cleansing the Palestinians with the help of America - the leader of the Free World - who also happen to be occupying Iraq Afghanistan and bombing Pakistan, Libya and Yemen all ruled by US supported dictators - even Gadhafi who is in bed with the US

    I also see this leader of the "Free World" - with the support of Canada Australia Micronesia - vetoing the statehood of Palestinians

    So, I have to ask: who is the bigot here?

    On topic:

    Israel Plans 10 New Settlements In The Negev
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm more than happy to admit the entire world is a bunch of bigots. And they are. It's not a matter of two wrongs make a right. What I'm telling you is that there is no different between Israeli Zionists like you and Muslims who want their Civil religious bigotry Laws (see: every Islamic country in existence). Thus, there will be no peace.

    See, the entire world being a bunch of bigots doesn't change this fact. As a matter of fact, one would think people might notice this and, oh, I don't know, do something about it. But they don't. What they want is for their bigotry to reign supreme. As it is, in that tiny little strip of shit smeared along the eastern Mediterranean, it's the Zionists who have the upper hand, and they will continue to have the upper hand - even if it means ethnically cleansing the Palestinians with the help of America. ALL because people want to believe the Magic Sky Daddy loves them more.


    Think of this: Of the two of us, I'm the only one that can see they're both the same. You OTOH think Zionists are in the right and everyone else be damned. Well, if it the shoe were on the other foot, you'd be taken the other side. I've seen it here for years. Muslims think Muslims are right and everything is so unfair and Jews think Jews are right and everything is so unfair and Christians think Christians are right and everything is so unfair. Oh, they all know, because they gots the inside scoop, the good stuff, the magic, magic book. The real deal.

    If people weren't religious fruitcakes, they still be killing one another, but, at least it'd be over something sensible bullshit and not some Sky Daddy complex they developed because mommy didn't read to them enough.


    Shall we wait till 2012 and see if I'm right again?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The way I see it is that the US follows Ottoman laws which exempt people on the basis of religion from paying some taxes and charge others to make up the slack. I also see that inspite of making a lot of noises about democracy, the US supports dictators and ethnonational states based on race and religion like Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    Of the two of us, guess who does not pay taxes to the state to maintain religious institutions?

    Hint: its not you.

    Btw, I just saw Hanan Ashrawi on CNN international expressing the Palestinian POV. Did they show her on CNN US or is the media still protecting the people from too much information?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, the USA has lots of problems and sucks. I'm American, so I know.
     
  10. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    While I understand the urge to counter-troll Michael, this is just asinine.

    What your average American gets out of the system of tax exemptions for religious organizations, is exactly the separation of church and state. A condition of said exemption, is exactly that said churches stay out of politics. This is a very different thing than a confessional system.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And? This was the whole point of the Ottoman system, having legislative councils outside the jurisdiction of the religious ulema who were considered subservient to the state apparatus as was the Turkish aristocracy. The entire Ottoman system was based on the system of askeri and ra'ya - which can be defined as governer and governed, the ruler and the subject, the tax collectors and the tax payers. How do you think slaves by definition not Muslims - became Grand Viziers second in power only to the Sultan? How do you think Christians and Jews rose to such positions of power in the Ottoman Empire. The system in the US is almost exactly a replication of the system under the Turks. Right down to the President having to proclaim himself a follower of the majority religion.
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The USA is modeled after the English whose system evolved from the Roman Republic, who mimicked the Greeks, whom were the true innovators. The English Kings bowed down before God to receive their crown. The Roman Emperors were the Pontifex Maximus connecting the people with the Gods.

    Yeah, most people are superstitious idiots who need to think their leader is blessed by the Gods.


    What role do you think, if any, Religion plays in the P-I conflict?
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    That must be why we obliterated two regimes that the Saudis wanted to keep around, the Taliban in Afghanistan and that of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
     
  14. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    You do not seem to have much of a grasp on how "the system" in the US functions.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You're kidding right? You ever listen to al Qaeda speeches? The elements supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan are the same elements opposing the Sauds in KSA. The Sauds may have recognised the Taliban government but they oppose any elements that could incite revolution in their kingdom. They will welcome any Afghan government that is Islamic in nature.

    As for Saddam, Israel trumps KSA in American policy and they wanted Saddam gone



    Yup, pretty much all imperialism flows along the same lines.

    Religion is a tool, whether its Allah or "They hate us for our freedoms"


    Its been used very effectively against the Palestinians in the same way that it was used effectively against the people of Najd by the British and the people of Afghanistan by the Americans. Note how the PLO transitioned to Hamas. In the same way that pan Arab nationalism became divided into artificial state entitities which ran across old lines dividing Kurds from Kurds. The British did it when they divided Pashtuns from Pashtuns as well. And the separation wall meandering through Palestine has the same logic, running 700 checkpoints between Palestinian villages separating Palestinian from Palestinian. Its worked out well in other ways as well, since Palestinians are pretty much an effective recruiting tool for any terrorism globally, even where for example, it is bin Laden wanting to get rid of the Sauds - people may not get involved to depose the king but insert the Palestinian cause into the mix and suddenly everyone from Saudi Arabia to Indonesia is a willing partner for "the cause"

    So that without doing anything at all apart from defending themselves against a military occupation, Palestinians are suddenly responsible for everything from Nazi Germany to 9/11 [with side issues like the jiziya tax by the Ottomans also somehow becoming something that works against them regardless of their activism to be free of both Egyptian and Turkish domination]

    If you ask the Palestinians themselves, they describe their movement for self determination as being based on sumud

    The Ottoman Empire was composed of a military class which "protected" the people who in turn paid taxes and supported them. Conquered territories were under the governance of a local emir i.e. puppet regime which was protected by the Big Chief who used conflict as a tool to establish control by military means with the intention of creating a Caliphate aka Project for the New Ottoman Century which would underlie the presumption of Ottoman leadership over all others

    Yeah, nothing like the US at all.

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    Do people in the military pay taxes in the US? Or are they exempt like under the Ottomans? It would be really bizarre if the US not only exempted religious organisations but also military organisations like them
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    What happens to a Palestinian Jew? Are they allowed to live as a Citizen with full rights in Israel?
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yes of course. The nationality of a Jew in Israel is Jew not Israeli. There are at least three nationalities in Israel. Jew, Arab and Druze even though the Druze self identify as Arabs the way Arab Jews used to.

     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    How do you suggest we change this? What is the solution?
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Communication. The single most important common factor in all people is a desire to avoid violence and suffering for "their" side. So, the best way to ensure harmony is put everyone on the same side. This is why I support a one state solution. I don't think a dialogue is possible if "one side" is powerless. But to argue from a position of equitable power is not possible until some people relinquish "their side" for "the other side". To give an example of Americans
    Tactical integration requires investment by members of the power group and like I have said from the very beginning, I-P is a Jewish problem and they are the only ones who can solve it.

    And it is happening:

    http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/30335.html

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-being-in-time.html
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I may agree.

    Suppose you have White South Africans (who were racists) and Black South Africans (who were racists) and they hated one another. You opine they speak to one another. OK. Agreed (maybe). About what? What would be the ideal communicative outcome? A change in what?
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Originally Posted by S.A.M.
    "The system in the US is almost exactly a replication of the system under the Turks."
    I see quite few simularities -What are the main reasons SAM is wrong, IYO?

    Most of the differences I see favor the Turks: ~ half the debt to GDP ratio and Growth of GDP in the 8 to10% range for the Turks, plus they have high speed rail (imported from china).

    Also they do not support Israel regardless of what it does so that is difference.

    Here is what Wiki states:
    "... Turkey is a democratic, secular, unitary, constitutional republic with an ancient cultural heritage. Turkey has become increasingly integrated with the West through membership in organizations such as the Council of Europe, NATO, OECD, OSCE and the G-20 major economies. Turkey began full membership negotiations with the European Union in 2005, having been an associate member of the European Economic Community since 1963 and having reached a customs union agreement in 1995 ..."

    Although neither the US nor Turkey will admit it, both governments are controlled by the rich - I.e. have government "Of the Rich, By the Rich, & For the Rich" with increasing concentration of wealth and power.

    That sounds very much like US, or UK etc. So again, why is SAM in error?
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    About what? About the challenges they face as a society for one. I have this conversation with almost every Israeli and Palestinian I meet. They feel sure that these 2 peoples cannot live together, ever. Its just not possible, there is too much hate and history. And then they meet as a group and they find that the "other side" isn't as unreasonable as they seem in theory or from a distance. Many Israelis have no clue what the nakba means few of them meet Palestinians other than the ones they oppress and who are in poor conditions. Many Palestinians see only IDF soldiers who break down their doors and kidnap their children and never meet those Israelis who agitate on their behalf. Yesterday I saw an interview with Marwan Barghouti and Shlomo Ben Ali on al Jazeera and guess what? They had a civil discussion and agreed on many things. So whats keeping them from reaching a resolution?

    A lot of racism is based on assumptions about people - once you meet people of the group you think has some negative characteristsics, many of those assumptions don't live up to reality and you find a lot more in common with each other than you might believe is possible.

    Here is a recent example:

    And in Israel Palestine:


    Working together for common goals is one of the easiest way to build a relationship

    wizard has started a thread on how he is coping with the changing reality of South Africa and the challenges he faces. I find it interesting as a counter point to the I-P situation
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
  23. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Well if Israel and Palestine were ever to share some form of unified state (which is something I hope all peoples on Earth will eventually be able to do), between the two peoples I think they'd be able to press a lot of legitimate land claims on the rest of the region. The Arabs and Iran would owe the Jews huge quantities of territory equivalent to what was stripped of them after 1948. Meanwhile, the Palestinians could argue that between the meddling on their behalf from Arab states and the concentration camps their refugees have been held in for generations by those states, as well as the landgrabs those states made in the post-Ottoman era at the expense of Palestine, that they too are owed a huge chunk of territory for their troubles.
     

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