James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Mar 2, 2011.

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  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I personally wouldn't take much offense to that one either - on the grounds that there's nothing particularly bad about whores in the first place. To be "worse than a whore" is something like being "worse than a dentist."

    I do. And I'd kind of assumed that mods were informed about that sort of thing - I guess I imagined there was some running "sanctions" thread in the whispered-of secret mod forum, through which you all keep one another current on such issues. If there isn't, maybe there should be?
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I see Sam's cognitive dissonance has confused even the spinning Tasmanian devil.
     
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    The normal presumption, when dealing with adults of average-or-better mental competency, is that when one refers to "your faith," they are referring to your actual faith. Which, for a Christian, would indeed have to do with their views on Jesus. And not to the question of whether you share their faith. Your normal adult doesn't use the term "your faith" to mean "my particular faith."

    And I don't think that Muslims are any different about that, generally. Most mentally-competent Muslim adults exhibit no difficulty in understanding that "your faith" can be in whatever religion you happen to have faith in. If they want to refer to somebody's (dis)belief in Islam, they tend to just refer to that directly, and not conflate "faith" with "Islamic faith." The only people who use "faith" to mean "my particular faith, which is the correct one" are religious supremacists going out of their way to shoehorn expressions of contempt into generic terms, for the exact purpose of demeaning anyone of a different faith. That is offensive - not just in effect, but in intent, through and through.

    Only real question is why some people are willing to perform such ludicrous contortions of reasoning - like your suggestion that Muslims are only capable of referencing Islam with the word "faith" - to avoid admitting such. If you're going to go around demeaning the faith of anyone who doesn't share yours, at least have the (ball-filled) sack to own up to it.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    At least it wasn't worse than a lawyer.

    We mostly share sexual stories and recipes.

    Don't you worry your pretty head my lil Geoff Geoff. Mummy will smack down the big bad Muslim devil woman who called you a lemon.
     
  8. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    Sure they refer to "your faith" but they accuse one of being a disbeliever on the basis of one explicitly expressing a lack of faith not on the basis of what you really believe which is unknown to everyone.



    Any kind of supremacist does this and this is relevant how?
     
  9. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    ...sexual recipes?
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    When 6 is better than 2.

    Err.. cooking recipes.. of course..
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    On which planet? Are you telling me that when Christians refer to infidels it is NOT with reference to their "lack of faith" in Jesus but their lack of faith in their own God or gods? I assure you, for Muslims, a Christians faith in Jesus is completely irrelevant since Jesus is a prophet. When they talk of a person being a kafir, it is specifically wit reference to their belief in the Islamic version of God. This is what GeoffP terms as "modern usage". In classical Islamic doctrine a kafir is one who "covers the truth" or someone who is not a monotheist and refers to atheists, pagans and polytheists. But it is still referencing the concept of one God minus trinities and tribal allegiances. And of course, it is considered as a narrow view of God. Why would God abandon the world and only restrict himself to those who can be saved through Jesus? What about all the people who never heard of Jesus? Why would God only be for the Jews if there is only one God? Then who are all the other people to look up to? etc etc. A kafir is someone with the inability to understand or accept the Islamic God.

    But that is unavoidable. In any philosophical stream of thought, there will be "sides" and people who will favour one or the other. Otherwise they could not possibly subscribe to one over the other. It is not always possible to consider all possible alternatives as equally valid and some alternatives automatically invalidate others. Perhaps there is an element of provincialism even in those who embrace the cosmopolitan outlook for surely they are as contemptuous of the narrow minded as the small towner who looks askance at the global citizen. Maybe even more so.


    It is a fact of life that you cannot control the behaviour of others, only your own. If your hosts invite you for a meal and then choose to eat by themselves what can you do?

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    Especially if they get offended when you point out that they are being offensive?


    Very strange. What was everyone else doing while you were being so singled out?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    So you agree that if a Muslim calls a non-Muslim a "kafir", this is abusive?
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No, I don't think so. If someone "accused' me of not being a Christian or atheist I would readily confess to it. I'm not sure why a non-Muslim would be offended at being told that he rejects the Islamic faith when he clearly indicates that he does so. I'm freely willing to admit that being a Muslim I am not a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu or an atheist, etc. I don't consider it an offense that people who subscribe to those beliefs do not consider me a member of their group. Its like being banned from the men's restroom, I have no desire to go there anyway.

    Besides, I am pretty sure the atheists here feel much more abused by me than I ever would by them.

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  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think so. I think that even in secular settings, when someone accuses another of "being of little faith", this is to mean that the accused does not have the same faith as the accuser.

    Perhaps in a thoroughly democratic, relativistic and liberal universe, things would be as you say.


    It is simply inherent in having a particular faith to believe it is the only right one, the supreme one and that everyone else should have it too.

    If it is not the only right one, the supreme one, then why have it to begin with?? And if one is sure of something, one naturally wants to see others would be like that too.
     
  15. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    If someone angrily hisses at you "You pagan! Burn in hell for all eternity!"
    - how do you feel?
     
  16. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    One of the things that hurts is that the accuser takes so little interest in what is so important to oneself, and also shows little or no understanding and compassion.
    We tend to be hurt by rudeness, which suggests that we expect a better treatment, believe we deserve a better treatment (even from strangers).


    I think every faithful person is necessarily a supremacist. But how they express this, is another matter.
    I know people who believe that I don't deserve that the sun would shine on me, but they are still polite to me.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm usually astonished that anyone thinks their opinion of my faith is more relevant to me than my own opinion of it. I'm a terribly self absorbed person and I tend to take my own opinions much too seriously. Other peoples opinions are usually food for thought, something I analyse for content and motivations. Its why I am so rarely offended.
     
  18. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, that must be great! I wish I were like that.
     
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Unless in your own home, you are always fully dressed and shoed (so that in the winter, you wear a coat and boots also indoors and have your briefcase/bag on you at all times), there is probably a psychological issue here.
    Namely, a lack of trust for your hosts.

    In my home, we don't wear shoes indoors, and we expect that our guests take off their shoes too. But if I go visit somewhere, I feel very unease about taking off my shoes (and my outer garments and bag).
    I was curious about this, and I discovered that I am usually afraid that a fight would break out (and that I couldn't handle it), and that I would have to flee, possibly having no time to pick up my things and put on my shoes (which can be a real problem in the winter).
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    I'd feel amused if someone managed to angrily hiss anything at me on an internet forum. I mean, how does one angrily hiss on an internet forum?

    Smaller font?

    Smaller font in italics?


    I mean I can see how that would, err convey angry hissing.. If I'm high and drunk.. maybe.. :shrug:
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    It can be a disadvantage though, because some people take it as a challenge to dissect your opinions if they think you don't care much for theirs. We've had this conversation before, I think, about organised religion and its distinction from theism.
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, aaand....

    Yes - and so I reiterate: why are you being deliberately offensive?
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, more a lack of trust in Sam's reasoning powers on this issue.
     
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