Japanese solution?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by universaldistress, Mar 15, 2011.

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  1. Kumar Registered Senior Member

    Thanks for tellings.

    Then, what does it mean, energy has mass and atom looses mass when energy is emitted/released from it? Where mass of energy relesed from an atom or mass loss due to relese of energy goes/settle?
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  3. Kumar Registered Senior Member

    Thanks. Ok, please you people now reply to my questions.
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  5. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

    Kumar, when an atom looses mass it is usually as nuclear fission. This means part of it splits off as radiation. There are 3 main types, alpha, beta and gamma
    1) Alpha. this is when the nucleus emits a proton and a neutron together
    2) beta. the atom emits a neutron
    3) Gamma. the atom emits a high-energy photon.

    All of these will change the mass.

    In nuclear fission as in Fukujima, a uranium atom is struck by a neutron. It causes the atom to split into two new elements, and some energy (which is the heat energy we want) and two more neutrons. These two hit two more uranium atoms that emit 2x the energy and 4 neutrons. The 4 neutrons hit 4 uranium and so on. This is why it is called a chain reaction. It keeps going by itself once the core has become "critical". To stop it going completely out of control, things called moderators are pushed into the core to soak up neutrons and slow the process down to a sustainable level. These are often made from graphite. All the energy released heats up water at high pressure, and the steam drives turbines to make electricity.
    What happened at Fukujima is that the fuel which is made of pellets inside a zirconium tube caught fire and/or melted. This was because the tsunami knocked out both the power supply and the diesel backup pumps as well and they overheated due to lack of cooling water. Fuel stays hot for a few months after it is finished with, and these are stored in ponds of water. Unfortunately, some dried out and caught alight (we think).
    The physics are very simple really, no need to calculate anything on an atomic scale that I can think of just now.
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  7. Kumar Registered Senior Member

    Thanks for explaination. I could understand what you have told.

    I think you mean to say, atom is split due to nuclear fission and split off part of atoms(not energy) is radiation? Does it mean that such radiation is not energy but are just part of atoms?

    Just to re-assure, does it mean that atom don't loose mass in case of other energy emmition/reflection? If so, what do it mean, energy has mass?

    What about backround radiation? What can be the estimated time when this chain reaction will end on its own?

    Can't such fuel kept cool & avoid chain reaction, if dumped into the sea?
  8. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    They are now made the electrical connections and are powering reactors 1, 2 and 3's cooling pumps via the grid.
    The reason that's good news is the generator driven pumps they were using are now the backup to the grid, thus significantly reducing the chance of a problem with keeping these three reactors cool.

  9. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

  10. Gator Jim Registered Member

    Ultra, you are close but a little off target. Kumar, I hope this helps clarify the information you are looking for. It is a complex issue that I will keep simple to stay on topic. By education I am a Nuclear Engineer and spent 20 years in the nuclear industry. With a nuclear reactor and spent fuel facility, you have radiation from three primary sources:
    1. Uranium/plutonium/thorium fission
    2. Radioactive decay of unstable atoms created by the fission
    3. Decay of stable atoms changed to unstable ones due to exposure to the above radiation
    The types of radiation produced are:
    1. Fission products (two new atoms roughly half the weight of the original atom
    2. Alpha particle radiation (consists of 2 protons and 2 neutrons - the core of [helium atom without the electrons])
    3. Beta particle radiation (an electron)
    4. Gamma photon radiation (energy bundle - no weight or charge)
    5. Neutron particle radiation
    Fission typically splits the uranium, plutonium or thorium atom into 2 atoms that usually have close to half of the protons and neutrons that were in the original atom. Uranium has 92 protons (which is the atomic number) and the two resulting atoms are normally on a bell curve ranging from Kryton (36 protons) up to Barium (56).

    Typically the fission of uranium, plutonium or thorium yields:
    • 2 smaller atoms which are unstable and will further decay
    • 2 or 3 free neutrons that can cause more fissions unless they are captured in neutron hungry control rods
    • Large release of energy, primarily as gamma radiation
    • Some alpha and beta particles
    This is where Einstein's famous equation comes into play: E=mc[sup]2[/sup]
    The total mass + energy are equivalent before and after the fission.
    Radioactive Decay of Unstable Atoms:
    Most of atoms created by the fission process are radioactive due to their unstable nature. Their energy level is too high or their architecture is not a stable configuration. They will decay through stages until they eventually reach a stable or essentially stable state. The time it takes at any given state is not a certainty but rather an "on average" number referred to as the half life. During this process there may be many changes. Some will change the atom into a different element entirely, some will change the weight, but all will release energy in one form or another in the form of radiation. All of the forms are known as ionizing radiation and can cause havoc in the soft tissues of the body.

    The types of radiation produced during this transformation are:
    1. Alpha particle radiation (consists of 2 protons and 2 neutrons - the core of [helium atom without the electrons]) - The atom becomes a different element. This is the least penetrating form of radiation but still dangerous
    2. Beta particle radiation (an electron) - Minor weight change, but still significant energy release. More penetrating than alpha radiation.
    3. Gamma photon radiation (energy bundle) - Much more penetrating than beta. Very similar to x-rays.
    4. Neutron particle radiation - Changes the atom's weight by 1 unit, element stays the same. Typically between alpha and beta as to penetrating power.
    Decay of Stable Atoms Changed to Unstable Atoms:
    Any stable atoms in the vicinity of radiation are affected by the radiation to some degree. The unstable atom will decay as in the above section. The most common ways a stable atom becomes unstable are:
    • Electrons being elevated to a more energetic state
    • Electrons being knocked away from the atom
    • The nucleus of the atom capturing a neutron - it is still the same element but it now has a higher atomic weight
    • The nucleus of the atom capturing an alpha particle, changing it to a different element and increasing its weight by 4.

  11. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Well, simply James R.

    The in the time frame of Avogadro the means of makeing observation and definition in chemistry are not the same as your current assement and ability to make measurement. Just as in the time of Evanglista Torricelli and the first invention of the barometer. The Neutron was discovered by Sir James Chadwick in 1932. Avogadro had no conception of the neutron.
    Clearly your disagreance, suggest that you believe that Avogadro had prior knowledge of the existance of the neutron.
    Their are 3 types of hydrogen which do you think he had contact with, if you assume that he had H1 then his determination in comparison to every other element would be wrong, the only choice amoungest the hydorgen family of isotopes is H2.
    In the last effort to understand his assement,where there is some other option, Avogadro would have to have been working with molecular hydrogen in stead of H2 to gain a comparison to every other atomic element.
    it is up to you to figure that out, even so because Avogadro did not know of the neutron he could not make the relavant assement to the molecular gram any other way than to count the hydrogen as one atom, and each other atomic element a group mulitude of the prime atom Hydrogen.
    The same exsit for measurements with gases, each molecule although a atomic element, contains so many atoms (prime hydrogen). so then two different gases take from the same room and filled in a container have a relative number of atoms but different atomic weights.

    The AMU gram takes into account the mass of the neutron.

    James R your supposed to be a moderator of the Physics you should have already understood what i said, may be you have been spending to much time with ULTRA who seems to claim that he is some chemistry wiz director of some chemical company ect.. but he can not determine the cycle of nuclear reactions. nor has post no such solution to the problem in japan with the Nuclear Plant.

  12. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Here let me give you a little time ULTRA, so far you can not awnser Kumars questions because you do not even know what a electron is, yet you have been makeing a list of slanders, While preporting that you understand chemistry.

    Kumar you could in the minor assement, adjust the mass of a group of atoms by its change in the mass of electrons. Generally the variation of electron mass exist within the normal frame work of daily chemistry.

    If you left the planet it would be more of a applable practice in adjusting the the mass of a group of atoms.

  13. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

    For your information Dwayne, I worked at two labs, Mercia Diagnostics, and Anglia Biotech, Did a couple of years at Essex university before running my own lab, Brodico for two years. I can still provide the invoices for the equipment I used to set it up with. I still have much of the equipment. I only closed the lab down after tighter regulations that came in after 9/11 meant I could no longer store my chemicals so close to residential premesis. I never claimed to be an expert on radiological chemistry, although I did physics at school then college, but biochemistry was my preferred field, and that's what I did for a living. I by no means remember everything I learned in physics or chemistry many years ago, but unlike you, I do not simply make it up as I go along. Any error on my part is simply a failiure to remember fully, whilst yours is all error knowingly made. See the difference?

    Edit. It is no slander if it is the truth.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  14. Kumar Registered Senior Member

    Hello Gator Jim,

    Thanks for simple explaination for me. However I shall post my questions/comment bit later. But meantime, pls tell wherefrom energy come on nuclear fission. Is it due to mass loss in nett--i.e. due to mass converted into energy or just trapped energy in atoms is released?

  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member


    Which work of Avogadro's, in particular, are you talking about here?

    It is my understanding that Avogadro was concerned with atomic weights, which are weighted averages of atomic masses in proportion to their isotopic abundances. Are you saying something different?

    Not knowing about the neutron doesn't mean Avogadro didn't know how to measure weight.

    As I understand it, there is no "AMU gram". If you think there is, please link me to a site that uses that term.

    A gram is defined to be one-thousandth of a kilogram, and a kilogram is the mass of a certain block of platinum-iridium alloy stored in Paris, France.

    Your claim that there are three different "grams" is nonsense. That is, unless you can link me to any shred of evidence that supports your claim.
  16. Gator Jim Registered Member

    Encasing all the radioactive material at the damaged reactors in Japan in concrete is not a final solution. I'm sure you are all familiar with how concrete breaks down over time. Everything from sidewalks to seawalls gradually crumble. Water eats away at concrete, and I'm not just talking about acid rain and sea water. Even pH 7 ground water (most of it is not pH 7) will slowly erode concrete. Add to that the possibility that a future earthquake can cause cracks.

    On top of that, the decay process continues to generate radiation and heat for a very long time. Back in the early 1970s there were many studies, industry journal articles and conferences dedicated to the best way to handle nuclear reactor waste disposal. The spent fuel pool concept was never meant to be the permanent disposal site. It was an interim measure only. A spent fuel pool requires cooling, maintenance and security even after the plant shuts down. It is still susceptible to natural disasters. If the power company should go out of business, who will be responsible for the spent fuel pool's requirements?

    Most in the industry believed that the best engineered solution for the long term storage of spent fuel was chemical processing. The chemical industry can do that with ease. The highly radioactive materials could be mixed into a concrete and silica slurry that would be hardened in 55 gallon drums or specially designed concrete casks buried in geologically stable sites with minimal ground water present (e.g. salt mines). Of course there are both transportation and security concerns with this method too. The public does not want this waste stored in their "backyard" or even transported through their towns.

    So, in the past 55 years no one has come up with a good way of isolating spent fuel from the environment. Of course, they haven't had the incentive that the world has now to mitigate the damage. Maybe now we will find the answer.
  17. Kumar Registered Senior Member

    Whether you mean, mass change of atom(group of atoms?) is due to number of electron change or when one electron is replaced by another electron? Are all electrons didn't have exactly same properties? Then?
  18. Gator Jim Registered Member

    Kumar, the energy release in nuclear fission comes from the conversion of mass into energy. Ultimately it shows up as heat which is useful for generating electicity through a steam / turbine cycle. However, because radioactive decay continues for years after the reactor is turned off, heat continues to be generated and cooling must be provided for a very long time along with measures to protect the environment from radioactive isotopes escaping from the holding facility. This is part of the current problem in Japan both with the reactor and the spent fuel storage.
  19. Kumar Registered Senior Member


    Thanks again. It means there will be loss/destruction of mass/matter due to nuclear fission.
    Whether following link also suggest that energy come from difference in binding energy of origional & resuting elents??

    Btw, how radiation & radioactive material behave in water & sea water?
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  20. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Every nation has an Agency like the NRC who would ensure the spent fuel is taken care of.

    Long term storage is by Dry Casks in a dry location out of the rain.
    The heat is minimal by the time it is put into a dry cask.

  21. BigFairy Hi Im Big Fairy! Registered Senior Member

    That is too. Well that is what we hope.
  22. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Well , Kumar
    All electrons are not created equal, they are not the same they have differences. Even so they can be given mass or loss of mass within their orbit of a atomic nucleous. the atom will try to find its stable electron configuration and energy preformance. a loss of mass may cause distrubance within the electron configuration.

    Here is a effect of a change in electron chemistry effecting radiation that has been leaked in to the sea water.
    The Background Electron Chemistry will continue to increase untill May 10th
    this increase of background energy in electron chemistry is favorable for seperating Cesium from other mediums as its increases Cesiums electropostive charge as a stable or less transtionial charge that can be used as a tool. As Cesium seems to be a more problematic concern. for example extraction from water pooled in various rooms and basements in the Nuclear Facility can undrgo distillation more effectivly.
    The same background increase in electron chemistry will also effect Iodine keeping it along the shoreline; For now it is traveling Southward and on April 11th it will start migrateing North(thats 7 days from now). The range of Iodine clustering or plume travel and spread is from the shoreline to the sea line wake( where out going water re-meets the incoming sea water) appearing to be about 40 miles, however japans location causes this boundry line to be contorted(twisted) in to a latitude motion and it normal latitude flow to become dominate, making the sea line wake 13.2 miles from the shoreline and the boundry line wake become a current traveling within the range of shoreline to 13.2 miles. within this preformance of general sea water motion, particle motion in sea water is 132 ft per hour, or 13.2 miles in 22 days.
    Cesium beings Migration closer to the sea floor haveing a range just above the sea floor, and exstending from the shoreline to about 2.88 miles moving in bottom shorline drift in plumes streching 253 ft in to the ocean in directive motion and 32.4 ft along the shoreline. particle motion within the plumes are 0.166105 ft. per. second laterial and 0.072218 ft. per. sec.longitude.
    Settling occurrs in areas where plant life grow mainly in areas next to plant life groupings ( near foot of Plant life such as seaweed), generally cesium will float just above the sea floor untill reaching these locations near sea floor plant life.

  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Bull. As is the rest of your post.
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