Yes indeed we don't want the truth getting in the way of belief. Perhaps it is best to limit your knowledge of history to the same place as you get your science and so avoid inconvenient contradictions. Probably best you never get to know. But I still encourage both you and Jeeves to look so you can agree that you can't find anything. But I must tell you that it is so satisfying to read the history and find a plausible well evidenced hypothesis on how the Christian cult not only survived the countless similar cults of the time but rose to extend to folk all across the Roman empire. Alex
They have so much in common it is difficult not to confuse the two. Have you studied the other human gods throughout history that share common features with Jesus, you know the same birthday, the similar twelve friends set up and the same death on a cross and resurrection after three days? There are quiet a few and I really would like to know if you know about any of them. I certainly would like to know how you would explain so many human gods having the same attributes. But perhaps you are right all these matters may be best placed in the conspiracy section so they start off with a hint of low credibility. Fortunately each of us can believe whatever we wish ...see if you can guess what I believe. Alex
Time. EDIT: Nothing new under the Sun. EDIT: Like Jesus was Horus before he was Jesus... since Jesus? EDIT: Nice to see you make your exquisite return.
That sort of thing...it seems you know. The JC story has been told many times such that it is clear that JC was a knock off, another Elvis impersonator, and therefore one can reasonably conclude on this basis ( without the need to enlist the various other matters pointing to fantasy) that the JC story was just another home grown cult. I hope the link to astrology is not lost on you. Thanks. It's is nice to see that the place is still ticking along and so many familiar faces are still alive. Is Jan still around? I tried to stay away but how can you stay away from the best site on the net? I needed more time in my day so this had to go. Respect to all. Alex
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Astrology is more than reading "your stars" in the newspaper. And I don't. Like most things, all things?, astrology has a history. Understanding that history helps one understand the transition from Sun workship to the worhship of human gods. It goes this way...the human claiming god status alledges being related to the Sun. The Sun has 12 mates, the constellations of the zodiac, the three stars in Orion known as the three kings align with Sirius ( the Bethlehem star) to show where the Sun is born ( unfortunately on the cross being our beloved Southern Cross) on the 25 th December...and mid winter the Sun stops moving South which ancients equated with it dieing and after three days appearing stationary, or dead, is resurrected and starts moving North. Astrology is a common feature for all of the many human gods..JC included. I could go on but you either know or you don't... I guess. In the past astrology or astronomy ( way back there was no separation between the two) was in favour because the study not only told about the gods (think of names for planets) but when to plant the crop. Eygptian priests (astrologers and astronomers) knew when Sirius rose it the morning the floods would arrive two weeks later...news from the gods. So their astrology hinted at being valid as it delivered real predictions. Anyways the many human gods s(rather their inventors) gained cred by claiming links with the Sun. But I am sure you know all that. Where astrology is important today is ..if you meet a lady ..there is a high chance she will be into it...so know your "sign" and others..don't shut down the conversation by saying it's all crap but lead with ..let me guess you are a virgo... And perhaps enjoy the benefits of being a hypocrite professing belief in something you find tiresome. But again I bet you already know that. Have a nice day. Alex
What do you need a hypothesis for? History is out in plain sight. Christianity didn't "rise to extend". It survived its contemporary cults/religions/belief-system because it was adopted as the exclusive state religion of the most aggressive empire of the period, who systematically eradicated all its rivals. It then became a pillar of power in Rome's imperial successors, spread at spear/gun/nuke-point to all the world, crushing all local cultures. Christian institutions are intolerant, ruthless, pervasive, rich and intensely political. What's any of that got to do with Jesus?
I guess I can only agree. My problem with Jesus is that I believe the story is a myth...based on the evidence backed up by logic and confirmed by unforfilled promises of return from a mythical character ... wake up folks..time to embrace reality. Well JC is a myth there can be no argument against. Why folk believe just means they accept fantasy as reality...not good one could think. Now that is funny because the teachings I find useful. I often say to folk that I am the best Christian they will meet but I don't believe JC existed or that the resurrection took place...why? Well I find the teachings useful..love they neighbour..simply is a reminder to respect others....forgive..so useful to stop planinng a revenge...a wasteful pursuit...do it or shut up..better still realise you won't revenge so forgive...if you have not acted you are weak and submissive...you haven't so forgive... much better and hides your inability to act. But past that do you need to reference a myth to think for yourself. Perhaps ..of course you do...well the future of humans needs more than such a cop out. The whole thing is curious. I guess what we need to realise is that ... Mmmmm I don't know what really...what should we believe or accept? Truth? The truth is we have a body of people believing in a fantasy where a mythical character is the only hope to determine a decent morality...crazy then some. Seeking morality via the good book is the best cherry picking exercise one can find to define the meaning of cherry picking. Many blame the church for the horror but I blame the stupid humans using religion to justify their unforgivable actions. Fools. Witch hunts to burn girls is just BS. Heresey... Folk were killed ..what BS. JC come back put it all right...well that won't happen a myth can not materialise so let's move forward and find something that is truthful and that works. Truth? So long since we used truth..did we ever use truth? Personal responsibility and thinking perhaps could that work? ...no that takes power away from those who should not have it...but listen to me... I am the new saviour..send money ..I need a jet to get the word out..I promise if you be good you won't go to hell and that you will live with me forever...well in different rooms..but hurry I feel immortality is beyond me. And if serious the fools would line up...that is the problem...stupid non thinking humans. We need another flood you could think. All I would like is for humans to think and accept they are but a speck in time and space and accept personal responsibility. Why diminish our grandness with superstition? Why? Get over the fact that you will die and that is the end of your story...your importance is as mythical as all the human gods ever invented. Stop kidding yourselves and stop being foolish. Now let us pray so close your eyes and imagine the fantasy is real. Alex
Likely a composite of self-proclaimed prophets and local heroes, yes. So - which tribal god isn't? It's no different from any other belief-system. People tend to personify their cultural icons. Ancestor, warlord, pioneer, preacher... the hero gets raised beyond the reach of ordinary people, so that they look puny and flawed in contrast; so that he can judge them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have enough fear of the law he hands down. It's basically the same golden rule proffered by every sensible philosopher since Atuk. (with significant local variations that I'm not mad keen on... Unfortunately - and I'm laying this squarely at Paul's feet - they've kept the Jehovah character at the center of it all, instead of Jupiter, who was just as arbitrary, but more human.) The whole point of civilization is to stop people thinking too much for themselves. Once we get past a population of 1000 or so, we have to limit autonomy and individuality. Intimidation, shaming and the threat of exclusion keep people in line; ego-stroking, exceptionalism and ritual reinforce solidarity. The concept of Truth is one of the great myths humans so cherish as to enshrine them beyond the pale of rational discussion. Little, mundane truths are useful; Truth is a pain in the psychic ass. That's why you're not expected to pick your own. That's what priests/pastors/imams are for. Psst - it's not a very good book. Has good parts; needs severe editing.
You are wise. Wise is an under qualification. You are more than wise. You have an ability that I can not emulate but only envy as you stand further back and no doubt see a bigger picture. I try but I fail to disconnect. My failing is that I am an uneducated naive idealist. The wrongs hurt me... I feel things could be better but I guess they are pretty good really. And who knows what is right? I read a fair bit of history..the wars...the complete destruction of cities and inhabitants...no one thinks about it or knows...the numbers are unimaginable but I can see every face..it is so horrible...I imagine each life taken...I feel the horror of captive death...but no night mares fortunately... JC was mythical but so much of the teachings presented by the author of that story fit with a world that I wish could exist...there is neat stuff you can select.. but then you look at the real world..that world outside humans..the insects and animals who are only a day away, maybe hours, from starvation unless they kill to survive..how insulated I find myself in the supermarket..looking at ground beef with no realisation that is some part of some unfortunate creature killed to provide my dinner. And if uncaring a steak..I could go vegitarian but hypocracy saves me.. but the separation from reality of the killing of my meat leaves me somewhat uncaring although nevertheless I can after some thinking realise the killing I ignore. Each life is so precious and look at how many have gone to feed me... I can understand why humans drink or take drugs if it is to hide the reality. I care but hypocritically tolerate the world I would reject. Living and managing your selected morality is not easy but I won't buy the prepackaged stuff. And so all I can do is grizzle without a clear definition of my grievance...not wise..not wise at all. If I had a dog I would give it my steak dinner..but no dog and what can I do ... Alex
I don't know about wisdom; have not yet attained the requisite poverty: I can still afford to drink. Humans are royally... um... divinely... f...er... OTH, we have a lot of imagination, and the funniest thing I've noticed is the similarity among Utopias invented by disparate story-tellers over the ages. Somewhere in the bottom of this murky H sapien consciousness is an enduring little nugget: the golden rule. If, at some point, we learn to walk morally as well as physically upright, we shall be ruled, not by a man, but by a mirror-neuron.
Au contraire, embracing wealth is immoral. Greed is a vice in all philosophies and oddly enough a deadly sin in christianity, unless you live in the US! We just love "stuff".
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That's not a bad idea... EDIT: Not a private Jet, but other things that cost ludicrous amounts of money...
