Judeo-Christian Bible--Proof, Divinely Inspired

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Alter2Ego, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    Seattle:

    How would anyone, prior to the 20th century "see" that earth looks like a circle from outer space, based upon their view of the moon? The moon and the earth are two entirely different planets.

    People on earth can see that the moon is a circle, because the moon is far enough above for them to see it in its entirety. But there was no opposing viewpoint in the 8th century B.C.E. when Isaiah stated correctly that earth appears as a circle when viewed from outer space. Why so? Because there was no space shuttles in the 8th century so that people could hover in outer space, far above earth. Isaiah was earthbound.


    Alter2Ego
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    Dywyddyr:
    Is it possible you do not realize that I never went to your sources--none of which support your claim that Pythagoras knew earth is spherical? I will show you why, beginning with Wikipedia.


    "Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors. Whether or not his disciples believed that everything was related to mathematics and that numbers were the ultimate reality is unknown. It was said that he was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom,[5] and Pythagorean ideas exercised a marked influence on Plato, and through him, all of Western philosophy.​
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

    That was taken from the same webpage from which you cherry picked the following: "According to Diogenes Laertius, "Pythagoras was the first Greek who called the earth round."" You will find my above quotation towards the end of paragraph 2 when you click the weblink. In fact, at the same weblink, Wikipedia admitted the following:

    "Writings
    No texts by Pythagoras are known to have survived, although forgeries under his name — a few of which remain extant — did circulate in antiquity. Critical ancient sources like Aristotle and Aristoxenus cast doubt on these writings. Ancient Pythagoreans usually quoted their master's doctrines with the phrase autos ephe ("he himself said") — emphasizing the essentially oral nature of his teaching.​

    Did you see that portion bolded in blue from Wikipedia? It acknowledges that there is no proof Pythagoras wrote anything about a spherical earth because NONE of his writings exist. To put it simply, your reliance on Wikipedia is cancelled out by Wikipedia itself. I will deal with Ohio State University and American Physical Society later.

    Alter2Ego
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,376
    Anyone who has seen the Earth from space would realize it's a sphere - not a circle. (A circle implies a flat Earth.)

    As for Isaiah, assuming he really existed and wrote the book that is named for him, maybe he saw the shadow of the Earth on the moon during an eclipse?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    Gmilam:
    That is incorrect. Based on the position of a space craft, earth can appear as a 2D circle (flat) rather that a 3D circle (spherical). This was confirmed by astronaut Charlie Duke, a non-religious man at the time of his viewing earth from his space craft.


    “My flight was not spiritual,” Duke said. “I didn’t have a spiritual experience or philosophical experience. We were so busy that I would call it just an adventure. It was emotionally high. You’re so excited. You’re there, but you’re so busy, I didn’t have time to think about God.”
    ...
    “You know, there’s a scripture in Isaiah, I think it’s the 40th chapter, that says that God sits enthroned above the CIRCLE of the Earth,” Duke said. “Well, we didn’t see God, but we saw the CIRCLE of the Earth, and there have only been 24 human beings who have seen the CIRCLE of the Earth, and that’s the guys who went to moon in Apollo.”​
    http://nolapost.com/2012/11/charlie-duke-visits-harvey/

    Keep in mind that Charlie Duke was not a religious man when he said earth appeared as a circle--just as the prophet Isaiah had stated some 2,800 years prior. He also confirmed that 24 human beings (astronauts) had seen the circle of the earth as described by the prophet Isaiah at Isaiah 40:22. You will find the above Charlie Duke quotations under the subtitle "Faith" when you get to the website. It will be Paragraphs 4 and 7 under the "Faith" subtitle.

    Alter2Ego
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,652

    Isaiah didn't claim it was from outer space. He claimed the Earth looked like a circle from God's position in the heavens - which it also does from a mountaintop, which is about as close as Isaiah could get to "the heavens." Try it and see.
    Took five seconds to Google it:

    ======================
    Hebrew astronomy
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Hebrew astronomy refers to any astronomy written in Hebrew or by Hebrew speakers, or translated into Hebrew. It also includes an unusual type of literature from the Middle Ages: works written in Arabic but transcribed in the Hebrew alphabet. It includes a range of genres from the earliest astronomy and mythical cosmology contained in the Bible, mainly the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible or "Old Testament"), to Jewish religious works like the Talmud and very technical works.

    Biblical cosmology
    The universe of the Hebrew Bible was made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below. Only in Hellenistic times (after c. 330 BCE) was the older three-level cosmology widely replaced by the Greek concept of a spherical earth suspended in space at the centre of a number of concentric heavens.
    ========================
     
  9. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,740
    Why are you able to read anything you want into these "prophecies" but not able to imagine that one might find a connection between the Sun, Moon, and Earth?

    If the Bible is divinely inspired why wouldn't prophecies be much more clear and impressive. How about "It the 20th century there will be a President named Reagan"?

    Or maybe "If you wash your hands before child birth more of your children will survive".
     
  10. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,376
    Unless you take enough time to notice that it is rotating on an axis.
     
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    The Earth doesn't appear to be a flat disk from space, it appears to be a sphere. Isaiah was wrong. And furthermore, you can't argue that the word circle was even mentioned by Isaiah, other translations use the word "dome".

    "He sits enthroned above the vault (dome) of the earth.... He stretches out the heavens like a veil, spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." NAB

    The idea of a spherical Earth didn't enter Jewish thought until the Middle Ages.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,132
    Firstly, can you stop with the constant bolding and colouring of words. It's getting tiresome.

    Secondly, he provided several sources, which you openly admit to never having bothered to read yet you declare they do not support his claims? This is trolling under every definition of trolling. While you may have been invited to discuss your beliefs, you have not been invited to troll. So now may be a good time to stop.

    Thirdly, you have provided nothing to support your contention. People are not putting you on ignore because they are running away from the subject. They are putting you on ignore because not only have you not supported your claims with any scientific evidence, but also because you are trolling so aggressively. Since you appear to be somewhat new here, perhaps the fact that this is a discussion forum and not a troll forum may have escaped your notice. Now you know, so we will expect you to stop acting and being the troll and actually post something of significance, support your claims, not refuse to read links that people post and then declare that their links from reputable and valid sources are invalid because of something you read from wiki.

    Also, you clearly have reading comprehensions.. From what you quoted:

    Please note the "oral nature of his teaching"..

    I am very glad that we managed to come to this understanding and expect you to do better in your future posts.
     
  13. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,122
    And that's the point you can't seem to grasp: they are both planetary objects.
    It is reasonable to assume that as the moon looks to us, we look like that to the moon...
    Circular.
    Are you incapable of applying any imagination to your thought, or are you one of these people who can only take things literally?
    If you see an inflated football (as in soccer) on television - it only ever looks circular.
    Every spherical thing you see will only look circular to you.
    Through logical inference we can conclude that the spherical earth will also look circular.
    We don't need to actually observe the earth looking circular to know this.
    Why are you struggling with this?

    They merely needed imagination to infer the viewpoint that you seem to think them lacking.

    You are making them out as being as stupid as you seem to be merely so you can claim the passage as prophetic.

    Your entire position here is further flawed:
    A flat disc when viewed from above will look like a circle.
    A sphere when viewed from any direction will look like a circle.
    Describing something when viewed from above as looking like a circle therefore does not mean that he considered the earth a sphere.
     
  14. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,060
    What makes me laugh about threads like these, is that everyone thinks they can speak for what people believed in the past. We have 7 billion on planet earth today, and most people do not agree on anything, so how can anyone claim that any single view was held by those in the past?

    Why do people assume, that people could not think for themselves in the past? People assume that thinking for yourself just started 2 centuries ago or something, lol.

    On this flat stuff, why do all people assume that people believed this? People did not write down what they believed, so how can one make a judgement of what people believed?
     
  15. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,122
    But people did write down what they believed.
    We have writings from ancient philosophers and academics that do just that.
    We know that the Chinese, for example, considered the earth to be flat when they calculated the sun to be just 100,000 km away.
    It's how we know that among the Greek philosophers it was Pythagoras that is attributed with first arriving at the notion of a spherical earth.
    And that this became the prevalent view over the next few hundred years, with Aristotle being the first to supposedly justify the idea with evidence.
    So we are fairly sure, from such historical writings, that ancient cultures did indeed believe the world was flat.
     
  16. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,612
    If God is 'above the circle of the Earth', let's say directly above Israel, and if we follow Alter2Ego and interpret 'circle' to mean 'sphere', wouldn't that mean that God is below Australia??

    (That explains a lot.)

    Daniel 4:10-11 relates a Persian king's dream of a great tree from which the entire Earth was visible.

    Matthew 4:8 says, "Again, the devil taketh him [Jesus] up into an exceedingly high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world."

    The synoptic Luke 4:5 says essentially the same thing.

    If the Earth was a sphere, this would be impossible in principle. No matter how high the mountain was, there would still be places on the other side of the sphere (Australia!) obscured by its bulk.
     
  17. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,738
    I think that some parts of the story were patched in,
    not in order to deceive, but because the writers thought:
    "This must have happened because it was foretold".
    For example, in order to fulfil prophesy, Jesus had to be born in Bethlehem.
    The Bible says that his parents had to travel to that place to take part in a census,
    but there is a problem with the dates:

    There are other problems with the account too. See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
     
  18. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,585
    The one that cracks me up is the genealogy of Jesus proving that he was a direct descendant of King David. There is a long list from Abraham through King David to Joseph in Matthew showing showing that Jesus was a direct descendent of David. But Joseph and Jesus weren't even related.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    ALTER2EGO -to- BELL:

    FIRSTLY, Something tells me that is an order. Interestingly, I do not recall seeing anything in forum rules forbidding colorizing and bolding. And since you find it tiresome, why do you persist in reading my posts, considering that other moderators--who do not find bolding and colorizing tiresome--could just as easily moderate my posts?


    SECONDLY, your opinion that I am trolling--after I already debunked one of Dywyddyr's three sources at Post 102, and was getting ready to debunk the other two--is based solely upon your membership to the Religion of Atheism. Based upon the 1961 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Torcaso v. Watkins, Atheism is Religion:
    http://forum.bible-discussion.com/showthread.php?20073-The-Religion-of-Atheism&highlight=alter2ego



    Anyone who wants to take up the Religion is Atheism debate will find me at this website.
    http://forum.bible-discussion.com/showthread.php?20073-The-Religion-of-Atheism&highlight=alter2ego

    I no longer debate at debatepolitics.com for the same reason that I am abandoning Sciforums.com, namely, the moderators intervened for the benefit of the atheists aka rescued them when they saw that the atheists were losing the argument. They, like Bell, got the bright idea that micro-managing is a good idea.

    BTW: Atheism is Religion is one of the topics I was planning to debate here, until you showed up and decided to rescue your atheist pals, ordering me around, while waving the ban stick. Whenever a moderator shows and starts to SELECTIVELY micro-manage my posts, I simply abandon the website.

    I have abandoned literally dozens of website because of the behavior you are demonstrating: You are taking sides and micro-managing. Moderators are supposed to be neutral. Moderators are only supposed to intervene when people are personally attacking each other or when they are not responding directly to what opponents post. The only thing that micro-managing accomplishes is that it runs off good debaters. You managed to run me off.

    Congratulations!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
    cluelusshusbund likes this.
  20. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    ALTER2EGO -to- BELLS:

    THIRDLY, you are expressing your personal opinion, being that you are obviously a rabid member of the Religion of Atheism. Since everyone on this planet has an opinion, your personal opinion means absolutely nothing.

    Interestingly, I did not see you accusing anyone of being a troll from the atheist camp, despite the fact several of them, including Dywyddyr, Seattle, and Spidergoat were posting the same tripe repeatedly, while routinely playing Artful Dodger by running from my direct questions. In other words, as long as your atheist pals appear to be winning the argument, you have no complaints. But because I repeatedly debunked their false claims, that makes me out to be a troll.

    I see hypocrisy.
     
  21. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    ALTER2EGO -to- BELLS:

    Now, that's cute, you transferring your ineptitude to me. The reality is that you are the one demonstrating that you have reading-comprehension issues. Here's why. I rebutted Dywyddyr's Wikipedia source, at Post 102, where it states in plain English that none of Pythagoras' writings have survived and there are forgeries under his name. Therefore all claims made about Pythagoras at Wikipedia are not based upon documentary evidence.



    "Writings
    No texts by Pythagoras are known to have survived, although forgeries under his name — a few of which remain extant — did circulate in antiquity. Critical ancient sources like Aristotle and Aristoxenus cast doubt on these writings. Ancient Pythagoreans usually quoted their master's doctrines with the phrase autos ephe ("he himself said") — emphasizing the essentially oral nature of his teaching.​
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras


    I also quoted from the same Wikipedia source where it clearly states the following:


    "Many of the accomplishments credited to Pythagoras may actually have been accomplishments of his colleagues and successors. Whether or not his disciples believed that everything was related to mathematics and that numbers were the ultimate reality is unknown. It was said that he was the first man to call himself a philosopher, or lover of wisdom,[5] and Pythagorean ideas exercised a marked influence on Plato, and through him, all of Western philosophy.​


    What is it about that don't you get?
     
  22. Alter2Ego Registered Member

    Messages:
    64
    ALTER2EGO -to- BELL:

    Oh, I understand, all right. I understand that you have a delusion of grandeur merely because you are a moderator at an ordinary website. You have managed to convince yourself that being a moderator at just another website has suddenly granted the power that you clearly will never find off-line in the real world? Get over yourself.

    Do you know how many websites I have abandoned because of people like you? I do not remain on websites where moderators think it is a bright idea to micro-manage.

    I am done with this website. Therefore, I have removed my avatar.
     
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,227
    Not even close to "debunked".
    All you did was apply one "standard" of evidence to what I actually wrote and a far more lax one to whatever you write.

    That would be an outright lie.
    A FOOTNOTE referred to "secular humanism".
    A) Not all atheists are secular humanists, and
    B) Such footnotes, known as "dicta," are written to provide factual background to the legal principles in a decision. These dicta never have the force of law. They are merely comments. And, furthermore, Peloza v. Capistrano School District showed that "neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or secular humanism are `religions' for Establishment Clause purposes"

    And, furthermore, Peloza v. Capistrano School District showed that "neither the Supreme Court, nor this circuit, has ever held that evolutionism or secular humanism are "religions" for Establishment Clause purposes..

    Yes, please leave.
     

Share This Page