Jupiter, Saturn, Harvesting Machines?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. nebel

    These two outer planets have among other unique features, areas that are at times at an apparent standstill with their surroundings, by virtue of their matched Orbital and Rotational Velocities. An analogy would be

    A harvesting machine that has grabbing means mounted on a rotating wheel, or band. This horisontal wheel or operating band, at the harvesting point, moves at the same speed, but in opposite direction as the harvesting vehicle, so that at the moment of gathering, the harvesting can always be done at an apparent standstill. The doubling of ground speed at the opposite side to the harvesting point, could help to eject the gathered material,.
    This efficient pickup of all the goodies from the field (solar energy) on that zero-velocity ring or band makes it the area providing the most energy, the crop, the "raison d'etre" of the exercise. . This localized energy potential being the driving force for the unique features, rings, bands on those planets. (motor driving the contraption using most energy, actually)
    Machines coincidentally developed not in the sense of Newton's Creator nudging the solar system once in awhile, but by virtue of the conditions already present at the Big Beginning.
    Details of the idea in the Science, Astronomy section, currently under "Jupiter--". Nebel.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    The answer to the question in the thread title is "no".
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  5. nebel

    Thanks, should have chosen a better thread title. Only an analogy. Of course, compared to Earth at 1 AU, a stretch to 25 rarer for the crop in the field near Jupiter, and a 100 times thinner yield in the Saturn area,
    solar energy comes at a premium in those location, so:
    Efficient, no - loss harvesting counts, even if
    it is not to sustain life, but just to create interesting patterns.?
    PS: the unstated Alter native Theory being:
    Efficient local solar collection might drive sustaining of unusual features on Jupiter, Saturn, not just internal heat. Efficient collection via matched O/R velocities.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  7. nebel

    The "harvesters" are actually cutting a swath through the crops, the photons. We call such swaths shadows. spiral shaped. when intersecting called eclipses, transits even.
  8. nebel

    It is not that a harvester, however efficient, can glean more crop (photons in this case) than are out there, but they can be concentrated to points on the machines where they are gathered, used to best effect. In the case of Jupiter and Saturn this happens on the area where there is already maximum solar effect, so to speak, on the High Noon line near the equator. There a speed measurement would show zero movement.
    A precise narrow beam radar aimed on the tire/wheel at the ground contact point of a record breaking car going >500 mph would still only show zero movement, like before the start. sorry to mix metaphors.
    PS.maximum effect of the tire on the surface is maximized at zero contact speed. Any sliding, squealing of tires, will lessen the impact of braking or acceleration action attempted (reason for ABS braking assistance)
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  9. nebel


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Here are images as shown in Universe Today, apparently of the surface temperature of the bands, that is at the outer cloud layers. The equatorial regions are ~10 000 km further in diameter from the core than the poles (almost the size of the earth), and should therefore be cooler. but appear to be are warmer. if so,
    The Zero Velocity Zone could have an influence here.
    The polar regions have very active weather driven by internal heat, but
    Jupiter and Saturn are possibly harvesting photons more efficiently near the equator, because facing the sun longer.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  10. nebel

    would you reconsider?
    here is a vivid animation*** how each unit on the equator stops in space to pick up easily the harvest of photons, or whatever goodies are out there.
    A harvest concentrated on the equator and noon.
    *** link from Wiki, and posted first on the pseudo science forum . "Orbital, rotational velocities cancel"
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

  12. nebel

    Well, I thought at least you would be prompted to substantiate your perhaps correct answer with some reason, some written refutation. because fact is :
    The band around the equator of Jupiter, and the Ring region of Saturn spend more time in the sunlight, than any other, and it is not because of the angle of incidence only, but because it is at least twice longer in the warming sunshine than the colder night side.
    This is called an alternative theory, I was granted a US patent of a simpler version of this in 1987 by the way, so the examiner agreed that at least as a theory it has merit, but it actually works, carries a name (not mine) and can be looked up on Wiki.
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Nonsense. For example, Jupiter rotates on its axis once every 10 hours. In that time, each side of the planet is exposed to sunlight for 5 hours, approximately. What's this "twice longer" business about? Where did you get that idea?
  14. nebel

    James, I got the idea thinking about it. So: you are right in pointing out the equal time that each half of the planet, the silhouette, is exposed to the Sun, on average. But, because of the prograde spin of the planet, and its orbital motion, the exposure time to the "all that there is" between the Sun and the planet is longer for the equator region than the poles or the morning and evening regions.
    I can do no better than using the analogy of a Racing Car driving at 200 km/hr, to illustrate that, with the wheels turning, illustrating the planet's rotation. The forward speed of the vehicle equals the backward spin of the wheels. With respect to the Road, the lower half of the exposed tire goes at ~ half the speed compared to the very top, that is rushing forward at 400 km/hr. A radar gun focussing on the tire would confirm that. When the rubber hits the road, it has zero velocity. A spike strip to puncture the tires is only effective because it is really getting nailed at zero speed, standstill.
    Slower speed, longer exposure time.
    In the situation of Jupiter, Saturn this is the exact situation. Zero velocity for the rotating equatorial region at noon, when in line with the Sun.
    I used the comparison of a harvesting machine on this thread to emphasize, that a rotating disc would grant a perfect, zero velocity "grabbing moment" on the active side of the device. so:
    Theoretically, there should be a band of greater absorbed energy harvested on the equator of these planets, creating greater energy gradients than normal from poles toward equator and from evening /morning toward noon. and
    Energy gradients drive action.
    That is why I posted the thread on alternative theories, because it fits the definition, as does the " Jupiters velocities cancel ?" thread.
    If it raises eyebrows, but works, it is theory, alternatively.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    I don't understand what you mean by "exposure time to all that there is between the sun and the planet". The exposure time is 5 hours, like I said. Isn't it?

    It is true the rotational speed decreases as you move from the equator towards the poles. At the poles, the net speed relative to the sun is solely due to the orbital motion of the planet, which is about 13 km/s for Jupiter. At the equator the minimum net speed relative to the Sun is about 2 km/s in the direction of the orbital motion. But those figures having nothing to do with how much sunlight a point on the equator or at the poles gets per rotation of the planet.

    I agree. The velocities you are talking about here are the velocities of points on the tire relative to the road.

    No. If a wheel rotates once per second, then a fixed point on the wheel will spend half a second on the top half of the wheel and half a second on the bottom half, per rotation.

    It's not quite zero. For Jupiter, the minimum velocity, for a point in line with the Sun, is about 2 km/s. That's relative to the Sun, of course. But the minimum velocity only happens for an instant of time in each rotation, anyway - just as the zero-velocity point on a rotating tire only occurs for the instant in the rotation when the point is in contact with the road. After that instant, as the wheel keeps rotating, the point once again has a velocity component in the direction of motion of the car.

    What kind of energy are you referring to? That could only be true if the energy you're talking about is stationary with respect to the Sun, of course, and it would only apply for a short instant of time at best, when the point on the equator happened to be precisely in line with the sun. And the velocity cancellation isn't exact anyway.

    What kind of energy are you talking about? If you're thinking of heating from the Sun, then it is true that the poles receive less heat than the equator, but that has nothing to do with the speed of points on the equator vs the poles. It has to do with the angle of the planet's surface (or cloud tops) with respect to the incident direction of the light from the Sun. On Earth, the fact that there is ice at the poles and not at the equator has nothing to do with any "zero velocity" point on the equator.

    By the way, for Earth, the speed due to rotation at the equator is about 0.46 km/s, while the Earth's orbital speed relative to the Sun is about 29 km/s, so there's not even any "cancellation" of speeds at the equator for the Earth.
  16. nebel

    I appreciate the attention you paid, time you took. -- I will work this through, good point by point. (not in order)
    I should have been clearer. " exposure time" should have been "contact time" or "harvest time" instead.
    and the road represents all the energy, particles that is present in the planetary field. Velocities will effect the time of exposure. the lower the velocity the longer the exposure

    "A spike strip to puncture the tires is only effective because it is really getting nailed at zero speed, standstill.
    Slower speed, longer exposure time."

    While the time might be equal, (good point), the velocities with respect to the road are different, doubled on top, therefore useless for transfer, as in the case of the spike strip, and at standstill for the goodies to be harvested from the road. The penetrating of the nails by the tire happens at ~ o km/hr

    Harvests are messy affairs, and yes, the particles and photons, carry momentum from the Sun's rotation and whatever forces influence in the planetary field, the general principle is though, that this zero velocity area would, like in the analogy, make the "harvest" efficient, even if the "crop, or prey" is on the move. There is a big difference if you try to harvest at ~ zero, or 200 km/hr, even 400 klicks. The "groundspeed" change is gradual bsw.
    "-precisely in line with the sun.-" . no, the matching of the velocities is a gradual process, starting slowly in the morning, standstill at noon, and gradually reverting back to orbital speed at sunset and then doubling night.

    "-And the velocity cancellation isn't exact anyway -" Very true. The perfect match using the formula (VO:VR)xRadius establishes that the absolute match can be slightly toward the poles in latitude, or sideways, forward from noon, or inside or outside the planet proper. , in the Rings of Saturn for example or at the latitude of the Big red spot. In the more esoteric aspect of the hypothesis, not on this here "harvesting" part, the Zero velocity area of Venus turns out to be Mars.
    Here were are discussing the additional energy tat is "harvested" because of the more efficient absorption because of the delayed movement during the whole daylight cycle of the equator region (including the zero point at noon) as compared to the full orbital velocity regions at the extremities of the plants silhouette, poles, leading (morning) and trailing (evening) areas. and
    Yes, this is an latitudinal energy gradient in addition to the diminished insolation because of angle of incidence and amount of atmosphere to be traversed by the solar photons, on all planets, or reflective clouds you mentioned.

    Yes, the Earth hardly needs more solar energy heating. This thread deals with the outer planets making the best of what little sunshine there is. harvesting. The more esoteric part of the hypothesis, alternative theory deals with the abstract Zero velocity areas outside the planets. (Venus at Mars) In case of your figures for the Earth. 29:.46 should give about 64, multiplied by the Earth radius gives the orbit of the moon, so, the Moon orbits in the Zero Velocity Zone of the Earth, as shown n the "Velocity cancel" thread in "Pseudo".
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  17. nebel

    James, coming back, this time to an animation of this process seen in a grating in the free link below: If you watch the speed of the dot between different vertical divisions You can see the linger, even reversal of the exposure due to the difference in "ground speed", while the overall exposure time would be 50/50 as you said.

    as seen, in harvesting or planting machine, even a rotary press, you have an action where the dot seems to actually punch down to the contact point.
    A case could be made here of Biomimicry. Nature already having a process, at least a situation, that we independently re invented, and used well.
    we do not know how a static field would respond on Jupiter, Saturn to matter at different velocities, coming and going, transfers.
    I would be very surprised that actions we use in these zero velocity situations not also occur in Nature.
  18. nebel

    "Saturn hasn't always had rings: 2017 Cassini flyby allows first accurate estimate of weight and age of Saturn's rings." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 17 January 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190117142159.htm>
    Evoking nebel's alternate science vision of Saturn as an efficient harvester, scooping up material from space at the sunny equator when, through a combination of orbital velocity and contrary rotational velocity, near standstill occurs, and things are easy to grab. then, during the night, in the equatorial plane, that stuff can be spun thin with the double speed- generated centrifugal force from orbit and rotation working together. Only at the equator and Saturn, with ice and some rock available.
    Harvesting made easy through the right rotation mix.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    You're assuming that the material being scooped is stationary with respect to the Sun.

    Also, what's supposed to be doing the "grabbing"?
  20. nebel

    well, yes, as a thought experiment, analogy, that could be an ideal situation, but in fish harvesting in rivers, for example, sometimes wheels are used that scoop up moving catch. not all harvests are potatoes.
    During the interaction between the planet Saturn's leading, morning side in it's orbital motion, all particles are at orbital speed. gradually that picture changes, as the points at the equator as seen from the from the "contact" point in the ideally "stationary" field slows to a instant halt, and then starts to accelerate up and away again. There are many different different speed ratios between morning and noon, and between poles and equator, offering "catching" efficiency. The "prey", come in all directions. some bodies have been caught that are now in retrograde orbits as moons. The noon equator zero velocity might represent the mean, most likely to succeed.
    Free floating matter, is grabbed by gravity, which of course is not stronger at the equator than at the poles, but, considering the material on Saturn to be and whatever debris can be picked up at any point to be of the same average speed would help in the "integration", the piling on. Also consider the fact that features might carry a charge, that is approaching a matching speed over the leading half spherical surface.
    Like a skipping stone, gravity can only win once the stone matches the speed of the surface ~ matching at zero.
    all I am saying is that planets might be better at accumulating than we give them credit for. thank you.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  21. nebel

    University of California - Berkeley. "Astronomers see 'warm' glow of Uranus's rings: First heat images of the rings enable scientists to determine their temperature." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 20 June 2019.
    Here, to confirm by the numbers the proposed alternative theory, that the velocity relationships of the Planets, Moons/Rings favour absorption of weak, distant energy. Uranus data this time:
    Orbital velocity 6.8 km/sec, Rotational velocity: 2.59 km/sec. Radius ~ 25 555 km. (Vo/Vr) =2.6245 x 25 555 = 67 107 km. the distance of the V ring, a zero velocity zone with Uranus, like our Moon is with the Earth. or:
    Moon Miranda, nearer to the Mu ring with a orbital velocity of 6,68 km/sec, near a standstill at noon . within 1.7% of the Uranus System's orbital velocity.
    The rings present at times 1) a side exposure, with zero velocity areas to 2) a full circle exposure, like a sieve, net, harvesting machines of sort.
  22. nebel

  23. nebel

    or a season that lasts 42 years, concentrating radiation on one hemisphere like Uranus, it's system. Our long days last just a few weeks/months, even then it is getting too much. For distant worlds like Uranus with only 1/400 the solar energy available, a real , if temporary boon efficient harvesting. Perhaps 400 times weaker, but 400 times longer in some place because of cancelling orbital and rotational velocities.
    double post because editing did not work.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019

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