Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by nebel, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    You're having quite a conversation with your self. I haven't bothered to read any of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  3. nebel

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    2,071
    I am actually not talking to myself, or strictly for myself, but responding to ideas that pop up here and on other sites on the subject.
    Taking a sidereal view, interesting things have to happen, when with these epicycles, cycloids, matter on planets, even moons appear to slow down, come to a halt in "fixed" space and even reverse, appear to retrograde.
    so, while you were a stellar contributor in the past, thank you, please take the sidereal, stellar view once in a while; For the last word might not have been said on this.
     
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  5. nebel

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    Origin, good and lucid question!
    No, but from that viewpoint only the equator at noon and the Moon Europa, not the whole planet, would be near a standstill or being retrograde, because the Orbital and Rotational velocities are so closely matched but working in opposite directions.
    In these, and Saturn's data, the equation (Vo:Vr) =~ 1 ! , so: the zero velocity zone is near the planet surface. Harder to visualize is

    The Earth to Moon situation where Vo: Vr is a ratio of 64:1, but multiplying that by the Earth radius of 6370 km gets you 407 744 km4 which is near the Moon apogee of 406 700 km, different at different times of course still,
    During an eclipse like 2019, 2024, The Moon is in a zero velocity position. with respect to the Sun/stars. how? as in a cycloid,
    Considering the Earth being the hub, the Moon affixed to the rim, our satellite will be at zero velocity when making contact with the road, the Sun/orbit,ecliptic.
    The only point in the system at rest in such a way.
    again and again.
    NASA and Mr. Bezo's, Blue Horizon promise to have a woman on the Moon by 2024. ,

    Anybody suggesting an experiment to falsify this alternate theory at that occasion?
    while watching the shadow of the Moon moving across North America during that April 8 Lunar night?
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  7. nebel

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    Just a note on my monologue here: have brought a NASA proof into this, (I think there is even a relevant partial Dione image moving against the Saturn background.)
    On Saturn, if the Earth Moon would be put there at it's original orbital radius, it would have a orbital velocity that closely matches the orbital velocity of the parent planet Saturn, namely ~ 10 km/sec. see "Doing the Numbers on no.1" below.
     
  8. nebel

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    2,071
    I do not understand what you mean, by "meet" -- how? match perhaps?

    Look at the direction of both rotations. As we face the Sun, we move retrograde. the Sun prograde (in a planetary sense we always look at the nightside of the Sun)
    Sun rotation, at Equator, 2 km,/sec. Earth rotation .5 km/sec. Earth orbit around sun 30 km/ sec.
    Where it all meets is in the lunar revolution, 28 days, close to the Suns rotation, ( dealt with in the thread "Doing the Numbers on No 1. )
    You probably will not find a matching number of km/sec. until into the Kuiper belt or Ort cloud. or the outer Moons, Ours is 1 km/sec.
     
  9. nebel

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    2,071
    "--An audacious mission circling Jupiter’s poles is probing the planet’s deepest mysteries -"
    New Scientist
    SPACE 22 May 2019
    When I see banded pictures like that, I wonder whether the differences in surface speed in the stellar reference frame have anything to doe with it. The shear that would result from near standstill at the mid day equator to 10 km/s velocity at the poles and double that at midnight.
     
  10. nebel

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    2,071
    just a reminder, in the upcoming opposition observations of Jupiter, please note:
    The rotation of the cloud bands at the equator is only 8% slower than the forward movement of the planet. Nearly cancels as the OP states.
    If Europa, or it's shadow) is anywhere near transit, it has the same orbital velocity retrograde view, as Jupiter forward motion (13.7 km/sec.) . almost at standstill at noon with the clouds, the Red Spot. so:
    zero velocity zones in you field of vision.
    Zero velocity zones defining a common field, like all rolling tires in the world touch the earth at zero velocity, thus define the global surface. mostly, kind of.
     
  11. nebel

    Messages:
    2,071
    Earth being in the zero velocity zone of the Moon,
    Equator clouds of Jupiter in zero orbital velocity around the sun
    Europa at perihelion at zero velocity around the sun; as seen Friday to Sunday. great views! so,
    when apparent orbital speed drops to zero, like in the above cases, in the speed formula, what happens to the value for time?
    Does it not touch the fundamental value?
     
  12. nebel

    Messages:
    2,071
    Here is a link that might show that the Uranus system (like Jupiter ans Saturn), where several Zero Velocity Areas are identified, has enhanced heat absorption, in spite of the great distance from the source, the Sun.
    University of California - Berkeley. "Astronomers see 'warm' glow of Uranus's rings: First heat images of the rings enable scientists to determine their temperature." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 20 June 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190620153544.htm>
    pease see calculations in the "Harvest machines" Thread in Alternative Theories.
     
  13. nebel

    Messages:
    2,071
    origin, Venus of course is hot as hell, even at night time, a warning for us. but here are the interesting
    Orbital vs rotational velocities of that retrograde neighbour:
    For every km of radius, the Venus rotation adds .ooo 0003 km/sec to each km of radius, extending that line out to the Mercury orbit would add 15 km/sec to Venus' Ov of 35 km/sec. , gives ~50 km/sec, well within the 39-59 km/sec range of Mercury's Ov.
    A vertical stick on Venus would keep pointing at Mercury.

    On the night side, subtracting this ratio from the orbital velocity gives you the Mars aphelion.
    The alternate theory of cancelling rotational and orbit velocity works, at a distance, and even for retrograde orbits. It works, period, cancelling or adding/subtracting!
    There is a kind of tidal lock, synchronous movements between planetary surfaces and orbit velocities. because

    Venus rotates like Mercury moves
    Venus rotates like Mars moves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  14. nebel

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    2,071
  15. nebel

    Messages:
    2,071
    When you have carousels going at the right velocity, you have zero velocities, cancelled speeds. as in :

    Royal Astronomical Society. "Galactic fountains and carousels: Order emerging from chaos." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 7 November 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191107112923.htm>.

    from Science Daily article.
     
  16. nebel

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    2,071
    NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "NASA finds Neptune moons locked in 'dance of avoidance'." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 14 November 2019. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191114140020.htm>.
    so just to repeat, this extraordinary situation lso exits as a coincidence in the area where orbital and rotational velocities cancel. as of OP. alternative theory, but fitting with mainstream data.
     
  17. nebel

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    2,071
    The ramifications become apparent when the rotational velocities are added at night or subtracted in the daytime from debris, (meteors) approaching the orbiting prograde rotators.

    Coming from behind, the entry would be gentler at nighttime ;
    From below, gentler in the evening.
    From above, the outer reaches, gentler in the morning (ignoring orbital speed)
    Head-on, gentler in the daytime, like the Shoemaker on Jupiter hit.

    A meteor approaching Earth from behind, evening side, would be 60 km/sec slower, than one arriving from the opposite direction. No great asses difference because of our slow rotation, but a fast spinner like Jupiter, of the OP, would double the difference or cancel it for a co-orbiting body.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  18. nebel

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    2,071
    That is a very good description of the situation, but is is not only a visual question, but there is real movement through a real medium involved and a stopping in that medium, and evening time acceleration from ~ zero at noon to 26 km/sec (almost the speed of the earth) in 5 hours, to midnight, of a bigger mass.
    Acceleration with respect to the sun. and
    deceleration in the morning from midnight's 26 km/sec back to zero at the noon equator. with respect to the sun.
    The Jupiter Saturn cycloids. result:
    Tides that are Velocity, not distance, generated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,445
    I can't make any sense of what you're trying to say here.
    The last four lines aren't even sentences - they're snippets. You would do well to use more verbs.

    I am not sure if you are arguing this, or if it has been made clear that it's not true but: the sun is not suspended over a point on Jupiter at noon any more than on any other planet.
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Orbital Velocity versus Equatorial Velocity is pretty much all over the map.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. nebel

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    2,071
    I can not blame you for that. In their combined orbital, rotational velocities, Jupiter and Saturn closely resemble a cycloid, so let me use the illustration of a cycloid or train wheel as an analogy. On any vehicles on our planet, any pendulum (like good luck charms on the mirror), would point to the center of the earth, so let us call that position to be similar to the Sun. with the Earth surface, road bed fixed to it.
    The wheel touches the rail or roadbed with zero velocity, because the rotation backward equals the movement forward. From the roadbed, observers would see the front of the wheel, together with the axle , advance at say 100 km/h. but at the moment of contact the speed is zero, then an observer a few feet on would again see that same point on the rim at heights of the axle move at 100 km/h. Now
    Looking down in an overhead view, and looking at a race car with better sight on the tires, The front of the tire would travel with the same speed forward as the vehicle, but at the very top, the tread moves at twice the speed over the road, a surface that is fixed with respect to the center. so: using (planetary terms) here,
    from the viewpoint of the road or overhead, fixed to the Sun. a mark on the highest points on the tire, (the equator), would go from 200 km/h on top (at midnight) to 100 on the leading (or morning) side, and then continue to decelerate to zero at contact with the road (noon and perihelion.) Similarly from that moment of contact the mark would then accelerate to 100 at axel level (or sundown), and reach 200 gain at the top, corresponding to (aphelion and midnight.) aphelion= farthest from the sun in rotation position here.

    In a railway wheel, a point on the flange actually moves backward at the bottom, making a loop at the "noon" position. This is the case of the moon Europa. like a plane making a loop at an air show, spending more time, exposure in front of the crowd.

    Thank you for the graph, Venus for example should be to the left of zero with only minus - .0016 km/sec retrograde rotation, but
    all planets have their zero velocity meeting with the "road" at interesting places as seen on previous posts. (V_o : V_r) x R
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    14,445
    No. the graph I made is accurate.

    If you want to make your own graph, feel free.
     
  23. nebel

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    2,071
    I have permission to use the graph from the UK, where I added the red line of constant gravity to infinity, and I find your set up original and useful too, but
    I believe Venus has only a very small and negative (retrograde) Equatorial velocity, and
    Pluto belongs below Neptune, he is the slowest of all the planets most of the time.
     

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