Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by nebel, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. nebel

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    Ocean tidal flows, like winds are created by gradients too, in this case, gravity gradients. but in this thread, it is asserted as an alternative theory, that the gradient between the cycloidal action of orbital and rotational velocity differences are also standing wave gradients.
    here is an item showing that solar heat too , acting on rotating body, Venus in this case, creates standing (at the evening side) atmospheric waves:
    Hokkaido University. "Atmospheric tidal waves maintain Venus' super-rotation." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 23 April 2020. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200423143050.htm>.
    "--the super-rotation' on Venus is maintained near the equator by atmospheric tidal waves formed from solar heating on the planet's dayside and cooling on its nightside."
     
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  3. nebel

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    The wheel analogy for the orbital, rotating motion of the gas giants, that, like cycloids have at "contact" zero velocity, leads to this observation:
    If one measured the speed (ignoring the boundary layer effect), of the headwind at the tire surface of a racing car, , one would measure the vehicle speed at axle heights, and double the velocity at the top of the tire, and no on -coming wind near the road surface contact area. similarly,
    Any feature of the interplanetary medium ( comparable to the road, the air above it) ) would therefore have a similar impact gradient in it's contact with the planet.
    On Jupiter's equator going from zero to a 26 km/sec 'headwind' and back to standstill every 5 hours. on and on
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    There are so many problems with this, it's hard to begin.
     
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  7. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    it would seem we should see this effect on the earth. Do we?
     
  8. nebel

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    thank you for that relevant question.
    The retrograde motion of the Earth equator at noon is ~460 m/sec, the speed of sound. At the same time the whole planet, center, poles, evening and morning side move forward at ~ 30 000 meter per second. a gradient in the "headwind" of 1.5 %. By comparison
    Jupiter registers a difference of ~ 13 000 m/s to near standstill at noon. > 3250 %
    Earth, Jupiter, Saturn are insulated from some effects of happenings in the planetary field by their magnetospheres, but at some point the effect of these gradients have to be accounted for., and are after all, unresolved issues.
    The bands of Jupiter, the heating of Saturn's atmosphere could all show a factor due to this gradient between the equator and the center, the poles, the leading and trailing sides.
    Double the gradient for midnight for good measure.
    Earth's equator : from 1.5% slower to 1.5 % faster in 12 hours, , Jupiter from ~0 to 26 000 m/s in 5 hours.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    *sigh*
    Slower/Faster relative to what reference point?
    The atmo, and objects in the atmo don't know they're on a planet moving through space. They are simply on a rotating body that is, effectively, stationary.
     
  10. nebel

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    well, good start, gentlemen, start your engines in the racing car analogy (the only way I have to think):
    let us work with the Bloodhound record hopeful. the reference of speed would be over the ground, but also the airspeed, which would vary according to local winds.
    Similarly, planetary orbital speeds refer to displacements on an existing common plane, against which all movements are assigned values. prograde and retrograde. Actual velocities encountered with different elements in the field might vary, such solar wind, directions of photons, magnetic field lines.
    If the speed of idling wheels of Bloodhound ( it is driven by jet, rocket blasts) were measured on their contact area with the ground, ar the footprint would read zero km,, sec. with no wind, that portion of the wheel would have no headwind. (ignoring boundary layer effects).
    A pitot tube in the nose might read 766 mph, near the speed of sound, bu the headwind on top of the wheels, would advance at twice that speed, have twice the windspeed on their upper surface, ~ Mach 2.
    Believe it or not, on rails, part of the wheels of bloodhound would actually go backward, while the tor plange part goes beyong 1550 mph. so
    in the application of the analogy, the planetary field comprises an agreed upon zero velocity standard, against which all velocities Orbital and rotational are stated (the road under Bloodhound) and the variables, direction of particles, magnetic, electric, unknowns even, (the wind, dust over the ground). the wheels are true cycloids in motion. like the nike from NSW university. Now imagine the wheels made of soft material, covered in liquid.
    That is the situation in the cases of the gas giant planets where a near zero velocity with respect to the accepted and the varying content of the planetary field,-- varies from standstill to 20 000 , 26 000 km/sec within 5 hours. time a variation in "headwind". but also
    as another gradient from equator at noon or midnight between poles* and center* and sunup* to sundown* in dimension, when measured against the planetary field. **** these locations maintain a constant forward orbital velocity.
    glad if you raised other questions to address.
     
  11. nebel

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    2,469
    exactly, because the effective orbital velocity for any point near the equator is zero. and for the outer gas giants, , at midnight, that point would traverse the observation aperture at twice the polar orbital speed.

    The alternative theory in this thread is, that these 2 rotations, Vo and Vr must somewhere cancel, have a zero velocity zone between them
    That is a typical situation between Gyres, and it is possible, that the present existence of these zero velocity zones is a leftover from the proto Gyres existing in the pre-planetary disk. interestingly,

    The Bands in Jupiter have multiple gyres, (thinking of the red spot), which could be expressions of the shear in the gradient resulting from the "stop" mentioned in the quote, and the continuing orbital velocity of both poles, sunset and sundown.
    Do not Gyres have to be cycloids with zero velocity contacts to operate friction free.?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  12. nebel

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    2,469
    I like to have another go, a replay to post #212, page #11 :
    If you were to build an orrery, a working model of the solar system*, the gearing for Venus would be easy.
    If, on its orbit radius, you centered the planet on a free wheeling disk that reaches to the orbit of Mars, The meshing gear there would give Venus the right retrograde rotation velocity.
    * with orbit and planet sized to scale.
    The Moon's disk would reach to Earth,
    Earth's disk to the Moon ( at the Moon's perihelion)
    Jupiter, Saturn just mesh directly on their orbit rings, or roll like balls.
    Coincidences? possibly those facts had their origin in due course from the vortices, gyres of the contracting cloud.
    origin?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2020
  13. nebel

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    2,469
    As it turns out. when expanding the application of (Vo:Vr) x R to other planets, an amazing connection was found in the Sun, to Venus to Mars system. Venus having a retrograde rotation, bringing the "zero velocity area" where" the rubber would hit the road " to the night side.
    As post #140, page # 7 shows, that is happening far away, inside the orbit of Mars.
    Here is an animation that depicts that situation,

    (c) shared from brusspup

    If Venus would be at the center of the 8 balls circle, and the large circle represented the orbit of Mars, Venus would be seen to orbit ~halfway between Sun and Mars.
    The retrograde rotation of Venus imagined in the center
    can be perceived here, being very slow, and touching, having a zero velocity "rolling " inside the Mars orbit, ( seen by the long arrow of Post #140 )
    Interestingly, the imaginary disk holding Venus
    reaching ~ 70 km/sec near the Sun, where the balls do the same. so:
    Venus is embedded in an imaginary circle, that touches Mars at zero velocity, near the Sun at twice Venus' orbital speed.

    Alternative theory: these velocity connections are the vestiges, show the angular momentum of the gyres of the origin molecular cloud.
     
  14. river

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    17,307
    Interesting

    How Dense is this Molecular Cloud ?

    Highlighted your last statement

    What do you mean ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  15. nebel

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    2,469
    I will not even think about that. Total Angular momentum is not lost though, , so our present orbital Velocities, rotational Velocities reflect that.
    The proposed original *** formula" (Rv : Vr ) x R might yield clues where the boundaries of some of the rotating systems lay.

    In post # 290 was shown indications, that Venus resides on, , is related to a rotating "plate" that has its border at the Mars orbit, (zero contact velocity) and had the appropriate orbital velocity near the Sun ( 70 km /sec). . As the invisible circle traced by the balls, it has all the right speeds, , directions. ratios.

    *** I am inviting anyone to provide proof that is not seminal in being used in prior analyses of the solar system.
     
  16. nebel

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    2,469
    The Sun to Mars region contains of course the Earth Moon pair. in addition to Venus. so, if the contraction of the origin cloud was uncomplicated, taken terra and Luna out of the equation, we might theorize, that Venus contracted out of a cloud portion that was in a zero velocity contact situation at ~ 1,6 AU, but near the Sun at 70 km.sec prograde, resulting in it's 35 km/sec orbitals velocity. with its slow retrograde spin, ( see also the "space drag" thread).
    If the 8 balls as particles, were in an orrery, the rotation, revolution would exactly mimic Venus' origin, . it's present V0/Vr values , even the maximum speed near the center, the Sun.
    Consider the 8 balls movement representative of the origin cloud portion.
    That is the theory based on the numbers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  17. nebel

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    2,469
    Yes, but additionally, in total, any and all points at the equator are in a cycloidal motion, which is nearly the case with the outer planets, therefore,
    on the sunny side, they move 4 times slower, from sunup to set, lingers 4 times longer***. and

    The incoming sun rays are bundelt not diffuse, so a tubular absorber, would have the sun stare down to the bottom, but stars at night only flit by the aperture at twice the orbital speed. or?
    *** like a plane flying westward.
     
  18. river

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    Great Stuff !

    river
     
  19. river

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    17,307
    Highlighted

    Disagree

    Not deep enough , Cycloid : Definition : a curve that is generated by point on the circumference of a circle as it rolls along a straight line .

    This is two dimensional thinking .

    We should be thinking in a minimum of three dimensions .

    In Further studies if not done so already will find currents and edies , liken to water currents and edies .
    when our solar system is viewed and studied three dimensionally . We will find a fluid dynamic .
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  20. river

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    17,307
    Further ;

    When you imagine the Sun Three Dimensionally and Moving , you get a better understanding of what our Star is . Our Star is a Sphere of Energy . All Stars are a Sphere of Energy . Not a point of energy .

    A Sphere has Volume . A point does not .

    The Suns Light Energy is going off it 360° . Not Just what we see in videos .
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  21. nebel

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    2,469
    For simplicity's sake the rotating disk of the ecliptic, or spiral galaxies can be thought of as near 2 dimensional. Of course the radiation, gravity from a star is acting in all directions ( see the thread "the wasteful universe), but the theme here deals with the unique situation where
    points with planets, on the equator, or determined by (Vo:Vr) x R loose their orbital velocity at noon, and double it at midnight, while maintaining their steady rotation.
    The 3d dimension is not forgotten though, because with these planets, their center, the poles. the leading and trailing regions, defining the 3D of volume
    maintain a steady orbital velocity. so:
    One velocity, one dimension at a time. easy does it.

    True, but the energy arriving at 5 , 10 AU is quite bundelt, in parallel Rays, streams of photons, from an apparent point source in the sky. Only during noon time on a prograde rotator, on the cusp of the cycloid motion, when the Vo and Vr cancel can you have best penetration, absorption. Depending, and modified with respect to the proper motion of the captured energy or particles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  22. river

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    Yes you can . But this is an incomplete understanding , towards both .

    The Spiral Galaxy is Three Dimensional , and So are the Arms . The depth of the arms is far greater than just a two dimensional object .


    And Fluidity . Rotation of the object its self matters as well . Three Dimensional rotation . Within a three dimensional fluid . Meaning this fluid has , depth , length and breadth . Within the Solar System .
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  23. nebel

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    2,469
    No question about it, we can accept it as it is. but for the purpose of this discussion about velocity ratios (Vo:Vr) x R, let us stick with the direct effects.
    Velocities are so important by themselves, think of Very Rubins work, and the Dark Matter hypothesis following similar lines.
    but here we are discussing simple things.

    Yes, Uranus has been analyzed here too.
     

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