Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by nebel, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Incorrect. It doesn't matter. Centrifugal force is the same in all locations. Tidal forces affect the planet based on distance from the Sun.
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  3. nebel Valued Senior Member

    There can be no orbital centrifugal force when there is no orbital velocity. There is no orbital velocity on Jupiter and Saturn at noon on their equators. While rotational centrifugal forces remain constant, Orbital velocities, and therefore orbital outward forces wax and wane from max at midnight, to minimum, ~zero at equatorial noon.
    centrifugal forces generate tides too, temperature creates tides.
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Correct. Nor can there be any orbital centrifugal force when there is orbital velocity. Planets orbit in freefall.

    The only place "centrifugal force" comes into the picture is when you look at tides - and even that isn't quite accurate, since it has more to do with gravitational gradient than centrifugal force.
    Doesn't matter. It could be spinning the opposite direction and you would see exactly the same tides (and equatorial bulges.)
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  7. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Indeed, that free fall is maintained by the balance of the two counteracting accelerations, one tangential, the other gravity. but: at noon, that balance is disrupted because there is no more orbital velocity to balance solar gravity acceleration. A balanced condition that is maintained at the poles, for example.
    I am pleased to disagree. That would double the orbital velocity* at Jupiter's, Saturn's noon equators, with no, or half the previous gravity effects there, at that moment, unrestrained particles would climb away momentarily from the sun, untidying the present tidy existing combined tides. (energy and gravity )
    * working on that situation.
    PS. Our different opinions (there is of course only one right answer) opinions stem from the fact that you are taking a parochial viewpoint , Jovian, Saturnian, and the author looks at the holistic picture.
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Neither of those is "accelerations." There is no acceleration; the planet is in freefall. You might call them potential forces, but that's not really accurate either. To take an Einsteinian view of things, the planet is simply following a curved geodesic in spacetime, which is, from its perspective, results in no acceleration in any direction.

    To put it another way, a planet's orbit is in no way like being on a carousel - for several reasons.
    You are completely and utterly incorrect. This can be proven via the math which I alluded to above. It can also be proved through simple experimentation done right here on Earth.

    If you insist on pitching woo in the face of actual, testable science, you are always going to fail. Pick up a basic physics textbook and work through it, or try some on-line courses.

    Or remain willfully ignorant; your choice. In any case I am done with you. You seem pretty resistant to learning.
  9. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

    As he has been and will continue to be.
    He refuses to try to understand it.
    Experimental results that disagree with his conjectures are ignored.
    He is not interested in anything which requires thought
    He will, good choice and he sure is.
  10. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Well, at my age I could be excused perhaps to be a small and slow learner, but I am stuck with my Keplerian level of thought. But back to the bothersome carousel speeding on the curved level track.
    Would it surprise the riders in the pendulum chairs, that always are experiencing equal pressure on the 2 halves* of their rear, that the chair seems to stop it's motion with the road, when it faces the centre of that curved road? That the chains do not have the same angle to the horizon during a full rotation?
    * seat of the pants flying, when the turn and bank indicator is centred, when you are in harmony with the all forces of the universe.
  11. nebel Valued Senior Member

    rather than commenting on Nebel's psyche, give us the math, the convincing counter arguments, the thought experiments.The viewers might be delighted.
    ditto for billvon, rather than quit, let us all hear all the details.
  12. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Of course this is a thought experiment, not even introduced by me. Yes, it would be pretty amazing to be on a planet, prograde orbit with a prograde rotation, and be able to just step off, while the speed of the equator site and the stationary line to the sun match. ( that is why night launches would be best and launch sites are preferred in southern latitudes.
    P.S. A thought here, We have these orbital velocities measured against what background? an imaginary fixed space, fixed plane of the ecliptic, Even the Sun rotates with respect to it. So, imagine these Jovians and Saturnians being able to lift their skirts, and just step off the planet's equator onto that fixed field. Probably could do it in their high heels. no shear, cheer!
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  13. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Here are some interesting zero velocity co-incidence that jumped up from the calculator display, when doing other zero velocity work in the Mercury - Venus - Earth system drag.
    Neither of these planets have a zero velocity situation orbit/rotation, that Saturn and Jupiter have. It would be a shame not to bring this series inward including Mars, Earth, Moon and Venus. and we can, with some imaginary circles in the ecliptic.

    Take the Earth, with a radius of 6 371 km it manages 1670 km/h rotational equatorial speed going backward on the sunny side against a orbital velocity of 107 218 km/hr. so: you need ~9.8 km of radius for ever km/h of speed. Multiplying that radius fraction with the speed, you get an imaginary radius of ~ 400 000 km , which is within 6% of the orbital diameter of the moon. (385 000 km). So:

    a) When the new Moon at noon is in a southern position, at that point, the Earth orbital velocity and rotational velocity cancel, are Zero. I suspect if you calculate it all on the barycentre, the 6% might vanish.

    When you take Venus with a radius of 6052 km and the equator limping along at 6.5 km /hr in retrograde rotation, on the night side moving against the orbital velocity of 126072 km/hr. Here you need ~ 931 km for each km/hr on the surface. Extending that to the Zero position of cancelling VO Venus you get 11 640 323 km, to get the solar radius of that add Venus' 108 000 000 km orbit radios, you arrive at ~225 393 000 km , within 1% of Mars/Sun distance, ~ 228 000 000 km. so.
    b) At midnight on Venus, when Mars is in radial alignment, an extended Venus radius would be at zero velocity with the ecliptic field there. so
    we have 4 zero velocity points in the ecliptic plane:
    Saturn and Jupiter equators at noon--(2) and
    the abstract, levered - out Earth equator out to the the moon at noon and (3) and
    the imaginary levered -out Venus equator at midnight out to Mars during Sun, Venus, Mars alignment. (4)

    sorry, some more numerology of coincidences above.
    This has become a 4 point Zero velocity proposition, not just Jupiter, would I be correct[ed] to redefine the Thread?
  14. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Just in, off the calculator display:
    Orbital velocity 86652 km/hr
    Radius: 3397km
    Equatorial rotation velocity 868 km/hr. therefor:
    3.91 km of radius for I km of equatorial speed.
    86652 : 3.91 = 22161 km.--OV-RV =0 because they oppose in direction at noon. (like on Jupiter.)
    Zero velocity, OV-RV=0 at 22 161 km
    Moon Deimos orbit radius: 23 458 km a match within 6%. so :
    This is the 5 st zero velocity area based match on the radius of planet size / velocities in the ecliptic.
    The extended rotational speed of Mars projected out ward to match the orbital speed, gives the orbit of Deimos (5)
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  15. nebel Valued Senior Member

    here is on fresh from the screen, do not even need my calculator for Neptune:
    size of Neptune, R= 24764 km.
    rotation velocity at equator, : 9650 km/ hr.
    mean orbital velocity 19720 km /hr 19720:9650 =2.04so the
    Zero velocity area of Neptune where Orbital and Rotational velocities cancel is at 2R = 49528 km from centre. and that my friends is smack inside the inner ring, moon system. so: here we have
    Neptune: zero velocity area, where orbital and rotational velocity cancel because they move in opposite directions, ---lies at 50 000 m radius from centre, the mean orbital radius for rings and moons. (6)
    speculating, a similar situation exists for Saturn, for the rings are in that area too.
    size matters, and Neptune is the 6 st to prove it. size and holding still. the others:
    1) Venus, zero velocity at Mars orbit
    2) Earth, standstill at moon orbit
    3) Mars, velocity cancellation at Deimos orbit
    4) Jupiter equal velocities coming to zero at equator, or great red spot.
    5) Saturn, having an ~ 10 km/sec zero area near it's rings, Equator and out.
    6) Neptune. with orbital movement and rotation equalizing at 2R, rings and Moons so: not naming causation, but there is a
    size of planet and zero velocity connection in the solar system. Interesting things happen at those points. passing the pop to the kids on the horsies on the carrousel.
  16. nebel Valued Senior Member

    Yes, thank you Janus, but does that not mean that the the orbits of Saturn, Jupiter are imaginary near circles in space where some matter will always be stationary with the ecliptic plane? (actually very little matter, since most of the rest of those planets' mass rotate at different speeds than at the equator), and can not
    imaginary lines like that be drawn, where zero velocity conditions would exist, if for a body, -- a) the radius and b) orbital velocity and c) the equatorial rotational velocity ratios were projected outwaedly, by the formula:

    (RV km/hr : R km) x OV km/hr = Zero velocity circle R km in the ecliptic field.

    (note that this formula works independent of the orbit size, but gives an orbit size. imaginary or not.
    Here are 7 such areas so far:
    1) Mercury inward, noon*, , ( points coinciding with an imaginary extension of the ~.3AU spacing of Earth -Venus -Mercury) aka bode,
    2) Venus outward, midnight, (because of retrograde rotation), Orbit of Mars ( yes, ~6000 km radius, extended to 228 millions.)
    3) Earth inward, orbit of moon*. (if the moon were in a fixed position to the an equatorial point of the Earth, it would be stationary once a month with respect to the ecliptic when at high noon.)
    4) Mars inward for it's moon Deimos ( situation as Moon.)
    5) Jupiter, at equator noon*, coinciding with equator, near red spot
    6) Saturn, at equator noon, , close to in line with rings.
    7) Neptune in, coinciding with inner moons Thalassa, rings.
    not tempted to attempt Uranus, Pluto or Solar system/ Milky way, because these are steeply inclined to their ecliptic planes.
    It can not be a coincidence that significant features are found at the imaginary and real point lines in the ecliptic, where zero velocity conditions exist, or are projected to.
    In case of moons, the periodic points ( monthly) can be identified on these imaginary orbital circles.
    * only at noon, midnight and the equators are the Orbital and Rotational Velocities adding and subtracting, cancelling
    I can not find any other formula that would use planetary size to link to orbital mechanics results. can you?
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  17. nebel Valued Senior Member

    correction, sorry, the above formula is wrong: try instead

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    R in km : V at equator Radius km/hr) times V Orbital km/hr = zero velocity in ecliptic field.
    example : Neptune, Radius 24 700 : VR 19 550 km/hr = 2.56 km for every km/hr x VO 19 548 = 74 700, 50 000 km above surface, coinciding with Thalassa, inner rings orbital radius. note:
    Neptune's orbital velocity is twice its equatorial revolution velocity! unlike Saturn and Jupiter that have matching, cancelling speeds. so
    in the zero velocity lineup we have only left:
    Neptune -- Thalassa, inner rings 2:1
    Saturn equator, rings 1:1
    Jupiter equator, spot 1:1
    Earth Venus
    Venus ^Mars
    Planet radii predict exactly Venus, Mars, features like rings spot, Thalassa but fail below Mercury and Mars.. yet her
    Planet size predict close orbits.
    *** The curious thing is, that even the reverse formula yielded the Moon & Deimos, being in zero velocity distance, where as the correct ration centres on Venus. had the fool fooled.
    Anybody heard of planetary size to predict nearby planet. orbits?
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  18. nebel Valued Senior Member

    wish this would be a flight of fancy without formula. In the quest to find the equivalent of the matching zero velocity (like Saturn, Jupiter, ), arrived at
    337 555 km in from Mars.-- Neither the Hill sphere, ~ 1 million km , or Deimos @ 23 465 km are close. so:

    Prediction from the cancelling velocity model: there should be something there. even imaginary.
    Using the formula V orbit ; (V radius: R) One gets these other zero velocity matches:

    Mercury 44 092 080 km below the planet, within 2% of the imaginary extension of the Earth to Venus to Mercury 0.3 AU each spacing sequence.
    Venus : 117 025 589 km above the retrograde rotator, adding it's SMA, 108 million resulting in 225 vs 228 for Mars a 1% match.
    Earth: 407 987 km below, subtracting R to get surface distance, 401616 km right on Moon apogee, within 4% of Moon SMA.
    Mars: 337 555 km below, minus R to get surface, 334 555 km , no match there. ??
    Jupiter o near equator, big spot
    Saturn 0 near equator, rings
    Neptune 50 164 km below, Moon Thalassa 50 o75 km SMA other inner moons and rings.
    Mars is part of the Zoo, by virtue of Venus giving it the zero velocity imaginary velocity match, but it lacks reciprocity, ~337 555 km +- 6% toward the Sun, where art thou?
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  19. nebel Valued Senior Member

    To reach a point where the orbital and rotational velocity cancel, or would cancel,-- when it does not happen at, or very near the equator like with Jupiter, Saturn and even Neptune, the imaginary radius was seen to reach down toward Venus, so:
    Mars does not lack reciprocity, it is trying, reaching down toward Venus, 'which has an imaginary equalizing radius, or "spoke" coming to within 1% of Mars. The 337 555 km reduces that gap. Were there a meeting, it would be where there is zero movement with respect to the ecliptic, like in meshing imaginary gears.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  20. nebel Valued Senior Member

    copied from the space drag thread:
    Here is the Moon. to discover the zero velocity radius with respect to the Earth. ( perhaps even the ecliptic during an eclipse)

    (Vo 3679.2 km/h : Vr 16, 66 km/hr ) = 220.877 x R 1738.8 km = 388.907 km. The Moon's orbit Semi Major Axis is 384 399 km within 1%! (perhaps working with the bary centre would fix that?) so:
    The sizes of Earth and Moon are such, given their velocities, that they would roll with perfect synchronization , like a tire has zero velocity with the road. now,
    has anyone seen the Sizes of the solar System bodies seen with such importance in defining orbits?
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  21. nebel Valued Senior Member

    The radii where Orbital velocity cancel would be 4% above Jupiter's surface, and 2% below Saturn's, or toward it's poles, That is where one would not move with respect to the space in the ecliptic setting near their Equators at noon.
    The strange case of imaginary action at a distance is in the Earth Moon system which shows that
    At noon during the new moon, the Earth's imaginary zero velocity point*** would be projected out to the Moon, (solar eclipse time, or near miss every month )
    At midnight during a full moon, the Moon's imaginary zero velocity point would be projected inward, to near us. ( lunar eclipse time, or once every month )
    This is so because the V orbit and V rotation are in the right ratios to the radii of the two bodies.
    *** the point where the projected orbital velocity and opposing equatorial rotational velocity would annul.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  22. nebel Valued Senior Member

    (Orbital Velocity : equatorial Rotational Velocity) x Radius = area of zero movement in solar system field. try it yourself. here is the amazing confirmation:

    Earth: VO 107 200 km/hr : VR 1674.4 km/hr = ratio of 64. x radius 6371 km = 407 890 km Moon apogee 405 400 km 99.3 %
    Moon: VO 3 979 km/hr : VR 16. 657 km/hr = ratio 220.75 x radius 1738 km = 383 366. 35 km.Moon semi major axis 384.399. 99.7% so:
    for what it is worth:
    The size of the Earth projected out with the speed of rotation will give you the Moon orbit as zero velocity area.
    The size of the Moon projected out with the speed of rotation will give you the Earth as the zero velocity area.
    A nearly universal law, (here anyway) size and speed will determine, predict your nearby orbiting body.
    Anybody seen this before, any where?
    (Vo : Vr) x R = zero V area, point of interest.

    other confirmed cases: Venus~Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune.
    predictions. .1AU within perihelion aphelion of Mars.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018 at 7:11 AM
  23. nebel Valued Senior Member


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    The original situation of the OP shown in point #7 Jupiter has evolved into identifying other areas where the opposing Orbital velocities and rotational velocities cancel to make a zero velocity area.1, 7 and 8 occur directly on the bodies, others are projected way outside their vicinty, case in point area #3 , which projects out from the night surface of Venus to Mars, because of the retrograde rotation of Venus, and it's slow rotation. Arrows #10 show orbital motions , #11 directions of rotation. Uranus, Pluto, Milky way, asteroids not examined because axis of rotations not aligned normal with plane of rotations, hence no clear velocity cancellations.

    Of interest too is the Earth Moon system, where the Moon's rotation & radius ratio gives the Earth as it's zero velocity point, and the Earth, having totally different size and rotation but having the same resultant ratio, gives the New Moon position #4 (like during an eclipse) as at zero velocity with respect to the Earth. 9 such areas are identified, #2 and #6 not occupied
    by known bodies.
    Amateurish astronomy: Size of planets as part of orbit size calculation.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018 at 4:23 AM

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