Kaballah and the Zohar?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by bigal, Jun 18, 2004.

  1. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    BAH! Take your defeatist non-brain discussion rhetoric elsewhere!

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    Seriously, Rosa, you should know that we're not giving up on this thing. We're looking at it from several angles. And if we gave up on the brain angle, then we give up on this thread. Are you trying to prove Gendanken right? This thread doesn't interest you, does it? You'd much rather be elsewhere. It's ok, we've appreciated your contributions, but don't feel obligated to return where you don't wish to be.

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    And, I'm still working on Esperanto's Apple.
     
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  3. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Invert,


    You little sucker, you. How you wish I would feel guilty. How you wish you could slap me, but you don't have the guts to do it.

    You can't tell shit from gold.
     
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  5. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm. Interesting. Once more the 'claws' come out. You are a most 'interesting' creature, Rosa. Wish that I could slap you? What the hell are you going on about? Shit from gold? Or you from shit? I begin to wonder at times. You once said to me beware of boring you like a cat with a grasshopper after it's pulled it's legs off. Really, you should beware of boring me. Because these 'odd' attacks of yours are doing just that.

    If you want to be a bitch then be one. Stop pussyfooting around a bit. I try to have conversations with you and evidently you are silently attacking? Being this playful cat? I really don't understand you, you know. And, I'm not even sure if I want to anymore.

    How I wish you would feel guilty? You are a strange, strange creature, Rosa. You infer so many things, don't you? Infer this. My only interest in you has been your knowledge. I've spoken before of wishing the conversations to continue. But, I begin to feel differently now. It begins to be... unwieldy dealing with your weird swings.

    Enjoy.
     
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  7. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Rosa:
    *funeral grin*

    Bar fight.
    "The suspense is killing me" says Wonka munching a chocolate bar "I hope it will last"

    (Wes, do you really wish for me to comment on your thesis or were you just, as always, throwing something out there? Gee, I wonder)
     
  8. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Gendy, I always appreciate your comments. I'd be interested to know if anything perked your interest. Actually sure, slice and dice that bitch up and we can see if that inspires anything back on my side. I enjoy the interaction and thinking about the stuff, so please do comment.
     
  9. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    More like being ambushed in a back alley. I have no intention of picking a fight or maintaining some hostile attitude. But, frankly I'm sick of this shit coming up. It's happened twice before. The first time was a misunderstanding that occurred while we were still getting the kinks out of our communication styles. The second was my fault and therefore I let it pass. Apologized abjectly in fact. But this one is a bolt out of the blue. And I'm unsure as to whether I even desire a mutual understanding on this one.

    It seems to me that there are people in this world who hide their viciousness behind a demure demeanor. Attacking sidewise. Attacks that can later be denied. It seems to me that these people, when they become frustrated that their sideways attacks aren't provoking the reactions they hoped, take a straighter route. The gloves come off and the claws come out.

    (I had wondered about certain... elusive comments made in latin in another thread. Now I have no doubt as to their intent. An intent she seems intent upon not speaking clearly. Here's some more latin. Esse quam videri. Esto quod esse videris. Words to live by.)

    But what's the point? I ask you? Where does this anger, this resentment, come from? Why does she choose to act in such an odd, vengeful manner? What have I done to instigate this? Jokingly tell her that we're not giving up discussions on the brain in this thread? This thread we hijacked with the sole intent of discussing this?

    Are there not plenty of other threads out there where the brain isn't the sole focus? Or the lead focus? If she wants to discuss things other than the brain, she has many avenues in which to do so. This thread, our thread, the kaballah and the zohar, is about the brain. It was about the brain when we turned it to it's present course way back on page 1. We're not shifting course now. Why should we?

    Blah. I'm spending far too much time on this nonsense when I still haven't finished Esperanto's Apple.


    It's coming. Have faith.

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  10. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    Translation: I, in my need to push my perspective, have completely snubbed Gendanken's invite to look up the Whorfian Hypothesis.

    It says everything you basically say, Wes, with the exception of gooey rivers.
    I read your post not once, not twice, but thrice and find you too eager to spill without taking much time to regard the people who will read it.
    Clarity, mon cherry. Its pretty.
     
  11. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    If I don't push my perspective, it will never advance. I didn't catch your invite. I'll check it out.

    Hehe.. I thought I was onto a good analogy for a minute.

    Thank you for reading it a few times. I have too. It's kind of crappy but it's a marker of my thoughts in seeking a solution. I don't have a lot of options at this point. I have to get out what I have at a given time, even it it's ugly. I spew my thoughts and that's what you get. If I sit around and try to pretty it up before getting it out, it will not be there for me to build upon later. You're seeing the process. It's pretty to me.

    Working on it, but as you may be aware, clarity when it comes to insights regarding the nature of mind and language is generally quite fleeting. What you get is what I have to offer. You don't appear shy about capitulating snubs.

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  12. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Is THIS what you were referring to:

    "We dissect nature along lines laid down by our native languages. The categories and types that we isolate from the world of phenomena we do not find there because they stare every observer in the face; on the contrary, the world is presented in a kaleidoscopic flux of impressions which has to be organized by our minds - and this means largely by the linguistic systems in our minds. We cut nature up, organize it into concepts, and ascribe significances as we do, largely because we are parties to an agreement to organize it in this way - an agreement that holds throughout our speech community and is codified in the patterns of our language. The agreement is, of course, an implicit and unstated one, but its terms are absolutely obligatory; we cannot talk at all except by subscribing to the organization and classification of data which the agreement decrees. (Whorf 1940, pp. 213-14; his emphasis)"
     
  13. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    9,686
    Ok, first things first. I'm going to have to break this up into several parts. I've tried doing figuring out how to shrink it to one concise post, but haven't found out how. There are prerequisites that must be explained before we get to what I was referring to as Esparanto's Apple.

    The first thing that must be made clear is the modern conception of memory and concepts in the brain. It is a theory that Donald Hebb put forward in 1949 and according to Calvin is the way of looking at it.

    Hebb said that concepts were implemented by a characteristic firing pattern in a small group of cortical neurons, which he dubbed a "cell-assembly." To recall someone's name, you needed to recreate that musical spatiotemporal firing pattern. But, because of the way that a long term memory survived episodes such as coma and seizure, it had to be a spatial-only pattern like washboarded ruts in well worn roads, something that didn't require ongoing neural activity such as impulses firing away. (The washboarded rut idea is that at a certain speed, the ruts vibrate the hell out of your car. There is another pattern in the ruts that would do the same for a truck. It's an overlay of patterns idea.)

    These ruts are conceived somewhat like the grooves of a phonograph record. It's all about spatiotemporal firings being recorded in a strictly spacial manner. This is how they are able to survive coma and seizure. He speaks of resonance quite a bit. Kind of like the 'burned in' effects of an epileptic seizure. The smell of chocolate or whatever precursor there may be. Nowadays, it is more in style to use terms such as "chaotic attractor" to emphasize the way pattern variations conform to a standard. (I'm not entirely sure about the mechanics of this chaotic attractor. It sounds familiar and perhaps I've come across it in the past, but the details are eluding me and the book doesn't clarify. Maybe you could shed some light on it. Heard of it?)

    Ok, pretty basic so far, right? I'm sure nothing new has been introduced to you here.

    Now, Calvin gives credit to J.W.S. Pringle, a contemporary of Hebb, for the idea of a 'plainchant' chorus. For a concept, memory, whatever to achieve any type of cohesion, force, clarity it must be shouted out by a large number of neurons (cell-assemblies) simultaneously. The more that shout the praises of a concept the more powerful the concept is within your mind. It also acts to solidify a standard pattern from variable patterns. This is a key concept in thought. Single neurons are messy and sloppy. It takes many working in unison and in parallel to achieve the clarity of thought which we apparently have.

    Ok, next, he brings in the topic of pyramdal neurons. These are tall with triangular-shaped bodies and are the most numerous of the cortical neurons. Input: They have a large dendritic tree ascending up towards the cortical surface before breaking into finer branches. Output: A single axon which branches eventually as well. Some of the branches end up quite close, some far away.

    Ok, there are two types of pyramidal neurons. There are those with their cell bodies in the upper layer of cortex and those with their cell bodies in a lower layer. Here's a diagram. Now, these deep-seated neurons are neurons of a different sort and I won't be discussing them. But, the surface neurons have a curious tendency. Their axons (which drift to the side, not up or down) tend to skip neurons. They tend to make synaptic connections at 0.5, 1.0, 1.5 mm distance. Now, since neurons have the same average gap length, there's a good chance that they will have reciprocal connections. I.e. A will excite B and B will excite A back. This allows neurons to fire simultaneously without being directly adjacent to each other. He gives this explanation why it works this way rather than them chasing their tails.

    "Many models of coupled oscillators exhibit such entrainment; it was first reported in 1665 by the Danish physicist Christian Huygens, who noticed that two pendulum clocks sitting on the same shelf would synchronize their ticks via vibrations within a half hour after being started at different times. Fireflies do the same thing much more quickly; whole trees full of fireflies can be observed flashing in synchrony."

    So, one neuron may fire (along with it's partners about the area) then it's neighbor may fire (along with it's partners). With this mechanism, the plainchant choirs begin to form.

    In the above diagram, there is also mention made of microcolumns. Groups of 100 neurons or so that share a common dendritic bush. For effects and purposes, these can be considered to be one neuron. Now, here's another diagram that shows a hexagonal structure made up of 300 or so microcolumns. This is the essence of this idea of thought. This hexagonal structure is like a 300 key piano. Inside it, all sorts of tunes can be played out. The hex is about 0.5 mm in width, so this linking capacity that the neurons show would connect this hex with other hex's nearby. Therefore, if a hex begins to play a tune, it can reach out to neighbouring hexes and begin to acquire territory. In this way, the chorus begins.

    An explanation for why the 0.5 mm hex. "So how many keys does the cortical piano have? Well, the largest collection of active nodes (from all arrays taken together) that has no redundancies (just one member of each active array) could be no larger than a hexagon 0.5 mm across (the corresponding points -- say the upper left corners -- of a mosaic of hexagonal tiles are always connected by triangular arrays)."
    Are you following me? I think I've got this part completed rather well. I think I'll finish this post here and begin with the next step in a later post.



    One more idea. This idea of hex's doesn't necessarily mean that this is the only hex that contains any particular neuron. There can be many overlapping hexes that take part in different functions, concepts, etc... Get me?


    Coming up next. Darwinian competition for cortical territory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2005
  14. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Oh yes, the idea of ruts. The way this is carried into the neuronal firing pattern is that patterns that are used often become 'burned in' much like an epilepic seizure will burn in certain patterns. This will come into play more when I get to competition.
     
  15. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    Becuase you did not read it.
    Because you are always at one end seeking to push through the group, always, without watching on who's toes you may step on.
    Very selfish for one so apparently compassionate.

    Even here you have failed to make another connection I made for you. This current you speak off sounds like the synchrony among these assembly of cells that is burned into a pattern on a nerual nexus- something like two turning signals beaming from two cars coming together randomly if you sit there watching them long enough. Likewise, if a critical mass of axon potentials fire together in a the brain simultaneously as something like 'applause', a memory or significance is 'burned' into one's mental catalogue. These all shape the mind and hence make up the Self.

    But no- you haven't read it, have you? You're looking for someone to tell you what a genius you are to have discovered the secrets of man's language with a gooey river.

    Vert:
    No, I have not heard of the chaos attractor... but maybe I have. Has it anything to do with fractals?
    But I have yet to see what any of what you put up there has to do with Esperanto's Apple.

    I'm picking up this strange whiff of carrot.
     
  16. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Actually I did, but thanks for your assenine judgement. I read it, but I didn't catch that you deemed it worth being an ass about.

    Wrong. You're right that I don't care whose toes I'm stepping on, but it's not because I'm "pushing through the crowd". How many are contributing to this thread now? Just a few people I like. That I would find your thoughts interesting and add my own to the collection is an attempt to stimulate you, and see how perhaps this particular combination of people might interact on a problem.

    I don't mean to "step on your toes" dear, but frankly you are not one to criticize for that particular offense. Perhaps you'll recover.

    *shrug* Whatever.

    Given that you haven't established a context besides "you're a selfish pig", it's a bit difficult to know exactly which 'connnection' you are referring to.

    That's interesting. Is that what you're saying I missed?

    How would I know when you're non-specific?

    LOL. No not really, you see Gendy, that was wesley making fun of wesley, for having briefly taken his words as particularly insightful. It's funny to me how for the instant I'm saying thing from time to time, or just after I've said it, I get a kind of "rush" or strong feeling of truthful epiphany, usually only later to look back at it and think "well that was okay but I think you overdid your self-congratulations a bit." I do think I have a particularly interesting comprehension of the subject matter, but so do you. What was it you said to me yesterday that should be reflected back at you now? Something about your impression of someone and how it clouds your judgement?
     
  17. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    Wes:
    *grin*

    Tou, tou, touche.
    In that case, I take back all I've sent in my thunderbolt. Accept my apologies or die.

    (Back later with insight, tis Friday. And yes, I'm digging the gooey river but not as obscure as you paint it )
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Of course.

    I need to sort that gooey river out into a diagram. I have one started but it's a small piece of the puzzle and will take hours to do up nice in corel. It's a task I've been avoiding because I was in a sciforums lull for a while. Now that I've been challenged to be clear it's probably time to get back on it, though I have a feeling it will be about as clear as the last one I did, where it seemed that no one understood what the hell I was talking about. Ack.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Invert, it took me until now to read your post. That is great stuff, thanks. Back to comment later. I had a few questions, but I need to read it another time or two...
     
  20. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Wes,

    Hey it's cool. It's just part one. And as Gendanken has said, just the carrot on the stick.

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    Seriously, it's not that I'm teasing, but that it's a complicated thing. I've been wracking my brain over the past three days trying to get it down to a concise form.

    It's from Lingua ex Machina by William H. Calvin and Derek Bickerton. By the way. It's not my idea. I'm just the messenger.

    And while we're at apologies, sorry I haven't devoted much time to your ooze analogy. I've been busy with this thing and several others. I think I'm stretching myself a bit thin at times. I'll let Gendy comment on it. See is she can slim it down some. I'd like to learn more of the Whorfian thing as well. Give, Gendy. Don't make us go searching all over hither and yon. You should know how easily the wrong information comes to hand in these web searches. Give us your gleanings of wisdom, O great lady.

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    And, as to how my above post is relevant to Esperanto's Apple. Well, it's background information that is necessary for what the message of the apple is. It's stuff that you may have already known partially or fully, but I have to be sure that certain prerequisites are laid down.

    I'll say this about the apple. It has to do with transfering concept patterns from one area of the brain to another area of the brain in a coherent form. The nerve highways such signals travel are not coherent. The message gets jumbled. The apple is a means of acquiring a standard form. Apple being the same pattern in the temporal as the frontal. This is Esperanto's Apple.

    But, I've still got an installment or two to add before we get to that point. I'm afraid you're just going to have to bear with me.
     
  21. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    You know. I think that might very well be where that name rings a bell from. It would make sense in a way. Fractal memory. Hmm. Might have to do some research on fractals next, eh?

    Already answered this above, but I'll repeat myself since I'm posting again. There are prerequisites that must be understood before we can get to the Apple. We'll get there, I assure you. Bear with me.

    Yeah, and you're not playing along. Bitch. You're supposed to say something along the lines of, "Oh yes! Please continue, good sir! I am avid for the next installment in this tale that you wish to tell. I have utter confidence that it is all being told in order to elucidate this apple of which you speak."

    grumble, grumble, rabble, rabble.



    Edit: Oh, I'm somewhat dissapointed that you didn't care to comment on my post other than to say that you don't see why it's relevant.

    *pulls knife from back*

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    I don't think I can reach it. Since you put it there, care to help me pull it out?
     
  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    BTW, a "chaos attractor", from my extremely limited knowledge of chaos theory, is basically the concept of a "sink" in the electrical or magnetic context of "sinks and sources", except translated into chaos theory. Maybe you can think of it as gravity well or something, drawing stuff to it.
     
  23. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    QUESTIONS (I'll be adding to the list):

    1) Has a PET scan or something been able to trace the inplementation of though down to the nueronal level, like where you can see the path of nueron firing as a particular concept is implemented in thought?

    I ask for the hypthesis that is it perhaps a series of connected dendrites could actually map the firing for a particular concept if you follow. I don't think this has been done though. It could be that one local path connects a bunch of nuerons via a small number of dendrites, forming a baseline (which is an ongoing process yes? (nuerons are constantly reconnecting, not really fast, but still constantly) there based on your previous encounters with similar thought/stimulous. Through a word in there to solidify the marker for the connection concentration.. rather, to make frequent the stimulous that stimulated that particular site due to previous exposures to the input of the word and associated thoughts.

    So the word marker gets put in and signifies "make connections around this active subset of nuerons (not the complete awareness, just the ones for this concept as stimulous directly aligns with it). Then as you hear the word again, the connection gets activated for the group to make connections... rather, a record of this activity is store in short term and put in the queue for long term additions during sleep or whenever that happens. The queue gets a chemical message or short term version of something the aligns with the particular place that the word set the baseline connection, and relevant stimulous/thoughts get associated with that baseline, re-enforcing or deteriorating associations to the larger network mentioned below based on the contents of the new additions to the circuit.

    In the active process of thought, this simply activates and reflects onto the passing though, adding pending availability of past experiences stored in memory (in either data or conceptualized form (can reach detail through the larger network, the dendrite attachment fires to the larger network, connecting the concept and related details thereof to the concept that recieved the prior signal) regarding relevant materials to the concept... at the same time, the activation of that baseline in current thought, provides a path that thought might utilize to support the investigation (or maybe it's just momentum) it's currently undertaking. The baseline is also part of a larger structure in the relationships to other baselines, dendrites connecting the larger structure as well.... so you get a big network of networks and smaller networks inside those, fitting into the loose heirarchy of personal experience and supported by 'muscle memory' type of function, to automate tasks that might otherwise detract from the momentum of thought.

    The process of thought learns to control its momentum (via the observer, thus far, he whom is subjectively pushing his brain around) to respond to stimulous. It can stop (sort of), go faster, variate on active networks, and some other stuff (this resultant of this process is the also at least most of the constraints regarding these abilities, along with intial conditions).. the pattern of the though adding to incoming stimulous to both put things in the queue for later, and change the input before it goes there.. basically thought "differences" (which could add, if the item from the cue has negative information as compared to the existing connections) its shape to stimulous it focuses on, thus encoding itself onto the items as they are put in the queue, effecting the way the nuerons in permanent memory get connected since its exactly their content that promotes the relevant connections per the process described above.

    Geh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2004

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