Karma - Determined or Determining?

This is a rework of a crucial question that appeared somewhere else, but valid to some extent whether or not you embrace the Buddhist doctrine of karma.

When I perform an action to what extent or in what way is the action determined by previous conditions and to what extent would it rather serve an act of will to predetermine future events?

A victim's perception of persecution may for instance be ascribed to their present condition, or you may just as well say that a persecutor inflicts because of his own karmic condition, or you may just as well postulate an alleged action, active or passive, as a deliberate cause of a future condition.

Perhaps you have already struggled with similar questions.

Perhaps you have found a way to come to terms with this.

Without intending to prejuduce further disussion a possible way forward is to suppose that a present condition limits the choice. A victim mentality may for example envisage a variety of ways to be persecuted, but a slim chance to see themselves as the author of their own misfortune, or good fortune for that matter.

-- Ron.

 

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A possible consideration: our present "karmic footprint" has been determined by many more inputs than we ourselves have given. I would venture to say that at conception we have an infanitesimal footprint, and are 99% the result of foreign inputs, and 1% potential (not tabula rasa, but a seed). From that moment on, with every thought and action we assert an equal weight of input from a single and immediate source that makes all other influences pale in comparison: ourselves. All the threads of history and influence is weaved together on the loom of our minds, and we produce the rich tapestry on which we must walk.

It soon becomes a question of which nature you nurture. There may be more options available than what can be empirically deduced from the immediate circumstances. The present condition might limit how much we can imagine the availability of choices, what we expect to be possible. And if we will not think, act, live or love beyond the limits of our expectations and our perceived abilities, we will likewise limit the results we get - a case of "if you do what you've always done, you will get what you've always gotten". An example would be learned helplessness.

But I have not tried to account for the many variables along the way, so this is just a preliminary assessment.

 

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All the threads?

Surely not.

We choose particular threads to suit the intended pattern, and that choice is very much a matter of the karmic condition, the map we construct of choices believed to be available.

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....."

In every blink or twitch there is a choice.

--- Ron.

 

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There are two ways to answer this - short term or long term.

In the short term we are conditioned by our previous karmas and in the long term we are making our karmas for the future- I know this sounds like a contradiction but here is an example

If you buy a plane ticket from newyork to paris you cannot change your mind about where you want to go half way through the journey (you are immediately limited by your previous karma - ie buyingthe ticket and jumping in the plane) - from this point you can do many activities that will determine your long term future - you can talk to other people on the plane - you can blow all your money on the in flight merchandise - you can try and hijack the plane etc ..... So according to how you act that will determine whether you have enough money to buy a ticket in paris to where you really want to go or whether you are greeted by the police and taken into custody or so many things.

That is why there is a big emphasis in spiritual life in tolerating the reactions of one's previous karma while working towards a spiritual goal - thoughtlessly reacting to one's previous karma causes further entanglement which reduces the opportunity for options

 

You're right. Not all threads (unless perhaps if we want to start guessing about chaos theory). But at least all the threads that are consciously or unconsciously processed by the loom.

 

Interesting perspective. Limited to the course, but not limited by the course.

Bit like a map, actually.

 

Yes you can.

People do that sort of thing all the time, changing their minds when it is already too late to be of any use to do so.

"nostalgia" for instance is one way to react to previous karma.

--- Ron.

 

You can only change your mind when your karma allows you - like you can change your mind in the ticket office but you can't change your mind at 20000 ft travelling at 800km/hr

 

You miss my point. You are talking about a change of action. Mind is not action.

It happens all the time, that people intend the impossible, or they regret what was already done, a waste of good mind.

I was trying to move on to how does karma fit with that?

This has engaged my concern recently, the way that thinking changes karma, regardless of anything overtly to be seen as action.

--- Ron.

 

But the point is that even if you change your mind in certain situations it doesn't help you any - you may say that mind is not gross action but it is definitely subtle action - so just as gross action faces variables so does subtle action

- and the two certainly influence one another - like for instance a person who is habituated to performing routine cruel activity has a diminished subtle capacity for compassion - similarly a person who undergoes rigorous disciplinary training has exceptionally qualities of self control and tolerance

 

Is meditation a change of mind?

They talk about karma in terms of merit.

I wonder who keeps the score, how to assess the merit.

--- Ron.

 

Depends what you are meditating on ... If you are meditating on the objects of the mind it certainly isn't a change of mind

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Even great personalities get muddled in the pursuit of establishing the exact quanitities of their merit, what to speak of us - one thing is for sure though is that the justice of karma is infallible.

In the ultimate sense any merit from karma is a demerit because karma pertains to material existence and material existence innvolves so many contingent sufferings even if you inherit an unrivalled kigdom.

 

How so sure?

This is a belief, not provable.

According to the Buddhist doctrine the precise working of karma is one of the four imponderables


--- Ron.

 

basically we mean the same thing - we cannot understand the mechanics of karma (although you can get a general idea about what constitutes sin and piety) but the result of karma is inescapable - in other words if you have some karma headed your way you cannot escape it by material endeavour although there does exist the possibility of avoiding karma through transcendental applications - that is one of the four essential truths of buddhism isn't it? The means to get out of material suffering?

 

both.

 

But since when?

 

Bhagavad Gita says you only have freedom to choose your actions and do not have freedom to choose the results. Mind you, this is said in the context were people believed in previous life. And this some time explains why a newly born baby meet with un-imaginable difficulties when there is no karma done by that baby. Karama can be very much decided by an individual but the result is what is not under control.

Per Patanjali Yoga Sutra events in a persons life is mapped with the count of the breath (from beginning of life, assuming a normal human takes about 21600 breaths in 24 hours) and if you practice Yoga to elongate your breath you will most probably win over the fate. But this also takes away the goods things that were destined for you as well – thus bringing equilibrium of no good and sad things happening to you.

 

"But since when?"

since karma came into existence.

 

Since it was determined?

 

yes