Karma - Determined or Determining?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by perplexity, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. perplexity Banned Banned

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    So what determines the karma then?
    Is a god required to manage the system?
    How does belief and prayer relate to karma?
    If you pray for a person do you thus hope to transcend their karma?

    --- Ron.
     
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  3. locomotive Tea me o' mighty teapot Registered Senior Member

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    karma determines karma.
    I do not know of any reason why an outside person is neccessary to manage the system. It could be self sustained.
    Belief and prayers are a form of karma.
    "If you pray for a person do you thus hope to transcend their karma?"
    Yes you could say that.
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    the person who acts

    yes

    faith shapes action, the proper application of prayer nurtures faith

    if your prayer is pure, but generally we are influenced by fruitive desire (ie a desire to benefit the body - which is a gross product of karma - as opposed to benefiting the soul - which has nothing to do with karma)
     
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  7. q0101 Registered Senior Member

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    Whenever I read a book about Buddhist or Hindu philosophy I like to think about the information in a scientific way. I have a different concept of karma than most people. I don’t think it is some kind of good or bad energy within us. I like to think of our planet as life form that exist within a larger life form that we call the universe. I don’t believe in the concept of a human soul. I also don’t believe that there is a difference between inanimate objects (carbon, iron, Ect.) and the biological things that we call life. What we perceive as life is nothing more than chemical reactions. All of the different forms of life that exist in the world could be a representation of all of the different cells that exist within our body. Humans could be a representation of stem cells. (Cells that can become any kind of cell in the human body)

    When I think about the six billion people on this planet I see a highly evolved colony of disorganized ants. When we work together we have the power to change the face of the earth. (The climate, atmosphere, ecosystems, Ect.) When I think about humanity I also like to imagine that we are one life form or entity. Every person could be a representation of one cell in your body.

    I don’t believe in the concept of good and evil, (good karma, bad karma) but I do believe in the concept logical and illogical behavior. I believe that when we intentionally harm other human beings (physically or mentally) we are committing an illogical act. It is like one cell attacking another cell in your body. So evil or bad karma is like a cancerous cell. When you are kind and helpful to the people in your life it is like playing the role of a white blood cell. Treating people with kindness and compassion increases your probability of having what some people would call good luck or good karma.

    I also believe that everyone deserves exactly what they get in life, regardless of whether it is pain or pleasure. I don’t believe in the common concept of reincarnation, (your soul coming back in the body of another person or life form) but I do believe that everything thing that we do in the present will have an influence on the people and other life forms that will exist in the future. I also believe that I am one with the universe, therefore I will exist as another person or life form in the future. People are suffering in the present because of the illogical decisions that people made in the past. And people will suffer in the future because of illogical decisions that people make in the present.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2006
  8. perplexity Banned Banned

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    Is perception a chemical reaction?

    I mean perception per se, consciousness in action. We know that chemical reactions are involved.

    --- Ron.
     
  9. q0101 Registered Senior Member

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    The human body is a product of chemical reactions. (DNA, proteins, which are made of different chemicals that we call amino acids) Existence is information and perception. The information is in the form of energy, atoms, and molecules, Ect. We perceive the information through our five senses. Our biological sensors gather the information and then it is sent to our brain where the information is stored and processed. We are basically preprogrammed biological machines. Our bodies are programmed to respond in a specific way when we receive incoming sensory information. The preprogrammed responses occur when our cells are exposed to different chemical in our body.

    For example if you are having a painful experience the cells in your pain receptors will react to a specific chemical. The information will then be sent to your brain where more chemicals will be released into your bloodstream. (Possibly adrenaline, stress hormones, and then endorphins to relieve the pain) Your brain will be processing this information while all of these things are happening. (More chemical reactions)

    All of these preprogrammed responses are determined by our genes. We take in sensory information and we react to it. Our genes allow us to store the sensory information so we can learn from our mistakes and make logical decisions in the future. This is an evolutionary adaptation that allows our genes to survive.

    There are some people that believe there is something going on a quantum level in the human brain that allows us to be conscious and self- aware. It could be true, but our neurons are still made of DNA. I believe that what we call consciousness is an illusion or the sum of our parts working together. If you had a conversation with some people that had brain injuries or someone that used LSD they would probably tell you how different their perception of reality was at the time. It is because the drugs or the injury changed the way the sum of their parts worked. Changing someone’s neurochemistry can create a completely different reality for the person.
     
  10. perplexity Banned Banned

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    From personal experience (LSD etc.) "changed consciousness" is a misnomer. Perception is certainly altered but with no inkling for me of a difference to underlying consciousness.

    With regard to karma, I have come to the conclusion that the karma of perception, our creative control of perception exerts by far the largest effect upon our eventual condition, our general state of mind and emotion, hence in turn karma as overt action. A fearfully psychotic outlook will for instance tend to perpetuate itself or spiral downwards as a sort of self fullfilling prophecy. What goes on within the mind is never overhelmed by external influences except to the extent that it wants to be, which is where the conditioning comes into it, perhaps in terms of immunity or vulnerablity.

    The question thus arises of to what extent the chemistry of perception is the karma. Already for instance changes in the way the brain works have been observed to result from meditation, "in the mind" as a practical reality.

    --- Ron.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2006
  11. locomotive Tea me o' mighty teapot Registered Senior Member

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    "as opposed to benefiting the soul - which has nothing to do with karma"

    why? benefiting means doing whitch is karma.
     
  12. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    According to the Buddha each new moment is an entirely new existence or reality determined by its previous cause. Therefore it is impossible to escape your karma. Even the act of trying to escape your karma is an effect of a previous cause (karma).You have no free will, all of your thoughts are effects of a previous cause, there's nothing free about will.
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Then why is one of the 4 essential truths of buddhism that one can escape the state of misery, ie escape karma - if karma was an eternal phenomena where would be th e possibility of getting free from it?
     
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    In otherwords karma is loosened by transendental activities
     
  15. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    The Buddha exclusively states over and over again that you can't escape your karma. For instance Maha Mogallana (one of The Buddha's disciples) once tried to escape his karma by the use of supernatural powers but failed to do so. In the end Maha Mogallana allowed himself to be killed by people who throw a stone on him, because he knew it was his karma. The Buddha had told him he couldn't escape his karma (the law of cause and effect). Whatever is happening is the result of a previous cause, so you can't escape it.

    But you can escape suffering, which is why Buddha says to maintain non-attachment, and to give up cravings (not desire) which causes suffering. When you escape suffering, you're not escaping karma, things will still happen, you just won't suffer.
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    So the conclusion is that you escape karma by cultivating detachment as opposed to mystic power .... but even this is slightly flawed because its consititutionally impossible for us to be unattached to something ....
     
  17. perplexity Banned Banned

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    Over and over agian?

    Do you happen to have a particular quote or a reference to such a statement to cite?

    When I peruse the Dhammapada and sundry Sutras to check up on the authenticity of some of the modern representations of Buddhism, references to karma and ego turn out to be surpirisingly difficult to detect.

    And by the same token, where please do you get this idea from, that the Buddhist way "loosens" or "escapes" karma?

    --- Ron.
     
  18. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Perplexity,
    I prefer to think of Karma as akin to game of Pool.
    Every shot you take is greatly influenced and limited by all the shots you and all the other players have made prior to this one, your skill and state of mind and body at the moment, your goals and intentions, all other distractions outside the game and of course the dynamics of the physics of the game itself.
    However, every shot is an action of free will within those influencing (though not strictly determining) limitations.
    Every shot has varied effects - intended and unintended - and all these effects then become the influences and limitations of the proceeding shots in the game.


    Do you not realize that these two statements contradict each other?
    Yes, Buddha did believe that there was no escaping Karma, but he never did say that man has no free will.
    If man had no free will the Dhamma would be pointless.
    Your decisions have been made for you and following the eight-fold path would be either an impossibility, or a inevitability - independent of the individual's will - which then renders Kerma pointless and effectively non-existent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2006
  19. perplexity Banned Banned

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    I like the pool analogy, the sense of concentration it invokes.

    I have seen endless arguments elsewhere about free will and the nature of karma but they never get much further from where they started.

    It is the day to day application that engages me, whatever people make if it literally, and the confusions of understanding that arise.

    Is it a good idea to be aware of karma at all, or is it better to just mind the method, the way?

    --- Ron.
     
  20. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks.
    I took the idea from a book I am working on.
    The chapter is far from finished - just a shell, really.

    I agree.
    And it is usually due to people arguing over the "proof" of the existence of "free will", which, in my opinion, is fruitless at best.

    We are of one mind on this.
    I am more interested in what people think of Karma and how they apply those beliefs to their lives and decision making process than I am in the mechanics of it.

    Can you truly mind the way wiothout an awareness of Karma?
    If you do, aren't you living a farce, to some extent?
    --- Why are you living the way you are?
    --- What are your intentions?
    Without minding cause and effect relationships, how can anyone work towards achieving your goals and living in alignment with your ideals?

    To accomplish anything, you need two things - a goal and a way to achieve that goal.

    Pragmatism is a root of Karma, and without pragmatic foresight, you have no means to accomplish your goals.

    On the other hand, no one, short of a God, can see all the effects of any cause, nevermind trace those to their inevitable effects.
    Unintended, unforseen reactions are at least as powerful as intended ones, so is being mindful of Karma really profitable, if even truly possible?
     
  21. perplexity Banned Banned

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    The question arises of what exactly one is to be aware of. My awareness likes things, stuff to perceive in real terms.

    These are the sort of questions that look easy at first but when you get down to it the subsidiary questions proliferate ad infinitum.

    I find it works better to think in terms of reaction; mind reacts to life according to taste or predisposition, i.e. karma, and in terms of probablity, probable result, rather than "intention".

    So according to what then do we need to accomplish?

    To entertain the ego?

    I like to be appreciated but specific goals turn out to be too much of a tease, cat and mouse on a bad day and "is that all there is" on a good day.

    First I want to know about the predictability of the outcome, life as education, but each to his own I suppose.

    Direction perhaps, that I am willing to consider responsibly.

    It is complex. There are different ways that it works, psychologically, socially, emotionally and sensory.

    I find it possible to develop a sense of karma, reflectively, cognitively, the way that a lifetime ripens according to the conditions established, and it helps then, hopefully, to develop a sense of the best moment, when to sow and when to reap, like a farmer with his eye on the weather.

    I believe it is also possible though to be infected superstitiously. When we think we have done wrong and deserve to punished the outlook tends to fullfil itself, but then again that itself would be a karmic process, the effect of delusion.

    --- Ron.
     
  22. VitalOne Banned Banned

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    Well here in the Dhammapada (127) it says:
    "Not in the air, not in the middle of the ocean, not entering the hole in the mountains. There is no place in the world, where one being would be released from the [consequences of] evil deeds."

    Also the stories of Maha Mogallana, King Suppabuddha and other Dhammapada stories clearly show the Buddha saying that karma is inescapable, as he says the effects of karma are inevitable.

    Also the statement about free will I made was statement of my own, not a Buddhist statement.
     
  23. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Again, don't you see that saying that there is even such thing as Karma and that one should heed it is inconsistent with the concept of strict determinism?
     

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