karma

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by birch, May 4, 2016.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Then explain its no more realistic than say tolkienns hobbit lore because the three fold is made up bs and you dont only get back what you put out. Life doesnt work that way. There are lots of things that happen to people another or others instigated, caused or set in motion and they were not responsible for. It happens all the time and quite common!

    The blindspot with those who believe in things like 'the secret' and other feel-good fantasy bs is that like does not only attract like but also opposite as well.

    As an example, if you are of the light, other lights will be attracted to affirm it but just as well its attractive to the dark just as much but for a different motivation which could be predation etc. In the real world, you can do good or be good and get negativity just as you can do bad and get rewarded. Its not an ethical system. Its only ethical in the relative sense in that it works if you associate with those who can affirm your beliefs and how you operate. Thats all it is. While there will be just as many who will take your 'kindness' for weakness and not as a sign to give back in kind.

    Evidently i understand how things really work much more grounded and realistic. You had to say 'kinda' because you know that even the wiccan beliefs veer toward even a passive metaphysical idea that the universe does this on its own as an innate law which my op is pointing out is the major unrealism of karmic definition.

    No, it doesnt. We create those consequences as many examples will attest in society with laws, courts, justice system and reward/punishment. Also, justice can only be understood or meted out in accordance to the enlightenment/evolved of the mind/being so therefore many in the past did not get justice or even tortured or harmed wrongly etc. And its still happening today. And no, some magical karmic law did not make things right for victims of injustice or exploitation.

    What is the strangest but obvious blindspot is that 'higher' ethical reasoning and systems have to be developed. Its actually looking in the wrong ballpark when you look to the uncaring universe regarding some moral force of karma when the default is very base predation. This is why many people do what they do because they know there are no moral 'inherent' consequences! Those consequences are only based on knowledge of deed and who has power to mete out consequences. Hello??

    So much for 'karma' as an entity or moral law on its own, eh? Life has proven this is not true. Like i said, we have to create it and refine it ourselves. The universe doesnt care if we create heaven or hell. Its a choice.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed.

    Karma and other crutches are how people feel better about themselves and the world.
    There's nothing wrong with that; it's a form of self-soothing.

    But it shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than a rationalization for what is, in reality, confirmation-bias.

    (How many have actually done a double-blind random sampling of subjects who have done good and subjects who have done bad, and followed them longitudinally, to see if those lives were bettered or worsened in a statistically-significant way. You can't judge someone's life until it's done.)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    your lazy bigoted and ignorant strawman is something i have neither the inclination nor the obligation to explain to your small mind. why should i bother explaining anything to you when its clear your only goal is disparage rather than learn anything about it? you don't get to attack my beliefs and than whine that i explain them to you after you grossly misrepresented them. what your doing is the same thing as demanding a physicist explain why they hate god. its a strawman argument bast on an undeserved sense of superiority and entitlement.

    the only thing evident here is your rather childish notions of your own level authority and illogical crap trap you think is an argument. again you basicly stated a definition of karma from your own highly baised viewpoint and than claimed it was an entire very diverse movements singular belief. oh and i'm a science major and a firm believer in a fact based empirically driven world. and no i didn't say kinda because of your fucked up strawman. firstly i said kind so don't fucking rewrite what i said in a more childish way to infantilize me and my beliefs. secondly no wiccan or neo pagan believes you only get back what you put out. the three fold rule only takes about the effects of your own actions and there long term ramifications. it makes no claims on others actions based on their own choices. well i'm out. try not to be some a self absorbed ignorant bigot in the future kay pumpkin
     
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  7. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Wouldn't belief in 'good' and 'evil' qualify as superstition as well? They don't have any more objective reality than karma.

    Karma theories can be very sophisticated ethical theories. I have the greatest respect for Buddhist ethics.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You can disagree and hold the view you have expressed. I can not disagree with your statement that karma theories can be very sophisticated ethical theories.

    Alex
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    From Wiki...Difficulty in arriving at a definition of karma arises because of the diversity of views among the schools of Hinduism; some, for example, consider karma and rebirth linked and simultaneously essential, some consider karma but not rebirth essential, and a few discuss and conclude karma and rebirth to be flawed fiction.[15] Buddhism and Jainism have their own karma precepts. Thus karma has not one, but multiple definitions and different meanings.[16] It is a concept whose meaning, importance and scope varies between Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and other traditions that originated in India, and various schools in each of these traditions. O'Flaherty claims that, furthermore, there is an ongoing debate regarding whether karma is a theory, a model, a paradigm, a metaphor, or a metaphysical stance.

    O'Flaherty certainly did not call karma a superstition. I am not sure about his qualification but lets assume he is competent to coment.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Belief in objective good and evil, yes.
    Good an evil are inventions of humankind, and assigned as it is seen fit.
     
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  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry I seemed to have replied before you were able to consolidate your thoughts and subsequent edit of the post I quoted and the subject of my reply.
    Your view on good and evil is reasonable perhaps the use of the word superstition does not appeal.
    Can you offer references to the style of karma that you believe hold merit, given that it is now clear to me there are many versions. For example may I ask your thoughts upon the featuring of karma in the next life senerio. I had not realised that being reborn was a feature in some interpretations of karma theory.
    Alex
     
  12. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    I tend to look at karma as a natural cause and effect type of thing. There are consequences for our actions or inactions, where people get tripped up is in thinking that there is some cosmic force behind it.
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    How can theere be a cause-effect link without some supernatural force behind it?

    Let's look at an example. Let me know if this doesn't suit your idea of karma.

    Guy in a BMW cuts off a VW driver then flips him off. Five minutes later, the VW passes BMW on the roadside, out of gas.
    Karma?
     
  14. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    The two don't necessarily have to be related. The BMW might have been low on gas, and cars do run out of gas if the tank is empty, regardless if the person driving it is a good person or not. But, if you put forth negative energy out into the universe, you will develop a negative vibe about yourself..you will attract negativity to you. That is more of how I see karma. Of course in Hinduism and Buddhism it is looked at differently, but the principles of karma don't have to be exclusively tied to a religion.
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't you just say

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  16. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    Why must putting forth negative energy into the universe (or just outward to others) be tied with a god or cosmic force? If people wish to believe that, that is perfectly fine, but it doesn't need to be tied to something beyond the natural cause and effect of how we live our lives. Does that make clearer sense?

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  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    God aside, what is "putting negative energy out into the universe" if not a "cosmic force"? Either you believe there are supernatural forces beyond that with which we live our lives - or you don't.

    By what mechanism might this negative enegy in the universe operate? How does it know who to target? And with what? Couldn't it just as easily give the BMW driver a winning lottery ticket?
    (I'm not asking you to speculate on the mechanism; I'm asking you how it could possibly be anything other than supernatural and with intent?)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  18. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    Philosophies really have no right or wrong answers. My idea of karma can be every bit as valid as yours. You know that, right?
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Philosophies still need to be internally consistent. As written, your idea seems to contradict itself. I am simply asking for clarification of your idea.

    If you believe karma to operate via a supernatural force, you could say so. That would be acceptable.
     
  20. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't have to, but if one believes it to...that is fine. I believe that karma is honestly the natural cause and effect of our actions or non-actions. What do you believe it to be, forgetting what I've posted for a minute?
     
  21. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Ethics are a system of moral principles, and morality is related or concerned (dictionary.com) to the principles of right and wrong, or the distinction between right and wrong.
    What is right and wrong, in human societies, can be determined in different ways, ranging from the laws of the land, right up to ones own personal conscience. I think personal conscience is the most potent of moral compasses because it is an expression of you.

    Those schools of thought that respect the law of karma, or just karma, do so because they do not believe this coporal existence to be to be all end all.
    They believe that they are not the physical vessels they inhabit. They believe that we are, at the very least, a subtle, material energy (mind), or at the most, spiritual energy (trancendental to material nature).

    I think that actions we commit, play out in our waking consciousness, but operate on an energetic level. I think every action we perform does not begin with the final act of committing.
    I think it begins with some kind of thought process, like inspiration, anger, love, etc... The thought process is a product of mental activity. Circumstances allow us to perform.

    As the beginnings of our action (generally) begin in the mind, the mind is responsible for everything that occurs in the world. In these cultures where karma is respected, you will find that they see the mind as something tangible, not an emergent property of the brain. They regard the mind as a subtle energy, and it's laws are different to the gross material world we perceive.
    So while the vessel (body) may cease to exist, the mind still continues. How it continues differs according to one's beliefs.

    Karma is the continuation of the mental activities. Once it is engaged, it has to see it through. As energy, it cannot be created or destroyed, and every action is met with an equal reaction.
    From that perspective it is an entirely natural phenomena.

    My two cents

    jan.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah that's cool. I'm just a little hazy on "natural cause and effect".

    See post 22.
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Do you agree that everything is just energy?

    jan.
     

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