C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 106-107 "Does loving your enemy mean not punishing him? No, for loving myself does not mean that I ought not to subject myself to punishment--even to death. If one committed a murder, the right Christian thing to do would be to give yourself up to the police and be hanged. It is, therefore, in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentance a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy. I always have thought so, ever since I became a Christian, and long before the war, and I still think so now that we are at peace. It is no good quoting "Thou shalt not kill." there are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. and I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. All killing is not murder any more than all sexual intercourse is adultery. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army: nor did Christ when he met a Roman sergeant-major--what they call a centurion. The idea of the knight--the Christian in arms for defence of a good cause--is one of the great Christian ideas. War is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is entirely mistaken." Vinnie Praise Jesus!!!
Amen...several recent translations read you shall not murder. That is one of the more common misconceptions about christianity.
What does punishment mean, if not revenge? Is revenge a good thing? should I kill the person who stole my wages or should I whip my self with chains for harbouring a sex fantasy? Thou shalt not kill! this is God's law, but you suggest that Christians ought to kill in God's name when a Christian believes that he is fighting a just cause. Does this mean that God's laws are subject to discretion? Who has the authority to discern such things?
Where the hell are you people coming from? Killing, Murdering, what the hell difference does it make? both are the means to the same end. Can any of you holy and righteous good people show me a sentence of death signed by God?
Well, Vinnie... I disagree with much that Lewis says here. Although not a pacifist, I believe that there is a great distinction between defending yourself against deadly force which results in the inadvertent death of the attacker and intentionally killing or ordering the killing of another human being, be it a Christian or not. It is up to God to decide WHEN a mortal life should end.
Tab - you might also ask these good and holy people which one gets to cast the first stone? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
That passage at the top of the thread sounds like somebody creatively interpreting things to justify his own actions. The taking of a life is the taking of a life, no matter what holy phrase or legal term you use to pretty it up. Either that or God is a lawyer. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
I was saying amen to vinnie, not tab. No, the newer translations are NOT people creatively intrepreting the bible. It is the correct intrepretation, believe it or not, King James Version has many errors and garbled meanings. There is a huge difference between murder and killing... is killing someone in self defense murder? The recently released Encarta Dictionary defines murder as "the crime of killing another person deliberatly and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance..." The books of moses contain many examples of killing allowed by god. "You shall not suffer a female sorceress to live," there are specific times given for when it is/is not okay to kill a burglar. Killing is acceptable to the lord...murder is not.
Corp. Hudson, Yeah, the OT god was certainly big on killing, and for practically any infraction. Any clue here why so many of us lack respect for the god of the OT? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Corp. Hudson, I have to agree with Searcher here. You might want to focus on the gospels of Jesus Christ which perfected the Old Testament. Quite a different message from God in person.
How can you lack respect for god, and yet be a christian. If I may use the principles put forth in Job, you can never, under any circumstances, even begin to comprehend god. So how can you lose respect because he was passionate and vengeful? You cannot disrespect the lords acts thousands of years ago, yet claim to love him now. The fact remains that if you believe that the 10 commandments are applicable today, even after the revision Jesus brought to the church, then you must understand that killing is not banned. Most is, but certain things are allowed. You cannot pick and choose what you believe in, and the OT is a large part of the christian belief.
To All, When murder is committed, the price is higher than any can pay. There is some sense of punishment in a death sentence. More than that, there is the automatic damnation of physical death because you have, by evil choice, undone what God has made in His image. As for self defense, God expects you to both defend your own life and welfare as well as that of the others around you. Front to cover, in the Bible, murder is murder and killing is killing. To murder is to by evil choice without the right authority of God undo the life that God has created in His own image. To kill is to undo the same within God's ordnances. Love the Lord and be Saved, ISDAMan
BUT...What about God's actions of killing others????????????? This is totally amazing how christians can somehow justify it..just because God does it. Have you (christians) thought about that ...even for a minute??? Or do you just kick into the automatic mode of thinking..."well, it's ok because God did it"?????
Searcher, Are you sugesting that there are 2 Gods, the God of the OT and the God of NT? I thought there is only suposed to be 1 God. So God is sam God who whent on a killing spree in the OT! I have to agree a little with Tab and ISDMAN on this one though. ------------------ My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it.
Corp. Hudson, God's divine plan for salvation which was prophesied and fulfilled did not change from the Old Testament to the New. However, when Jesus was alive, he was accused of disrespecting God because he clarified some of the Old Testament beliefs in a way that was considered blasphemous. There were many teachings of the Judaic scribes and pharisees which were denounced by Jesus. I do not believe that the ten commandments changed, however, Jesus Christ did clarify them for us. He also showed us, through his life and his words, God's divine message of personal salvation which was to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and to live a Christ-like life of right relationships through love. As Jesus explained when He was here, the deliberate taking of another human beings' life is not included in right relationships through love. To deliberately take another human being's life would be disrespectful to God.
______________________________ Tab - you might also ask these good and holy people which one gets to cast the first stone? ________________________________ John 8 1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" I'll let my bible do the talking on this one. Niv text notes surrounding these verses: 8:3 "woman caught in adultery".....This sin cannot be committed alone, so the question arises as to why only one defender was brought. This incident was staged to trap Jesus (v. 6), and provision had been made for the man to escape. The woman's accusers must have been especially eager to humiliater her, since they could have kept her in private custody while they spoke to Jesus. 8:5 "to stone such women".....They altered the law a little. The manner of execution was not prescribed unless the woman was a bethrothed virgin (Dt 22:23-24). And the law required execution f both parties (Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22) not just the woman. 8:6 "using this question as a trap".....The Romans did not allow jews to carry out the death sentences, so if Jesus had said to stone here, he could have been in conflict with the Romans. If he had said not to stone her, he could have been accused of being unsupportive of the law. 8:7 "let him be the first".....Jesus' answer disarmed them. Since he spoke of throwing a stone, he could not be accused of failure to uphold the law. But the qualification for throwing it kept anyo nefrom acting. I see a big differance between this scenario and that of say, Ted Bundy. Am I the only one that sees this? Vinnie Praise Jesus!!!
Vinnie, Of course you are not the only one who sees the difference. However, I also see a distinction between this and Lewis' assertion that a Christian judge can righteously impose a death penalty, even if it be the death of another Christian. One of the issues which I had with Corp. Hudson's post had to do with the Old Testament verse about not suffering a female sorceress to live. He is mistaken if he believes that the killing of such a woman is justified. A couple of things which most of us are in agreement about is that the deliberate taking of a human life by another human being is wrong and that inadvertent death resulting from self-defense is sad, but justifiable. I'll see you later!
Okay, so what DOES the passage by not suffering her to live? And while we're at it, what is the provision for male sorcerors? Or is this just more Christian gynophobia? I keep hearing that Jesus revised and "clarified" the OT. Ask any publisher and they'll tell you that this makes the Bible v.1 outdated and obsolete. Therefore, let's chuck it out. ------------------ I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
Oxygen, Isrealite slaves had been treated unmercifully by the Egyptians. The Book of Exodus recounts the history of the oppression by the Egyptians of the Isrealites and their miraculous deliverance by God through Moses, who led them across the Red Sea to Mount Sinai where they entered into a special covenant with the Lord. During their journey, Moses handed down strict moral, civil and ritualistic laws by which the Isrealites were to become a holy people. This passage is taken from some of the "social" laws which were handed down. The chosen people, in their effort to become closer to God, were forbidden from practicing sorcery among them. Although I did notice many laws which were directed specifically at men (why not the women?) I did not notice such a provision for male sorcery. Perhaps Moses, being a man, did not include men, because, in a way, he himself might have been looked upon by the people as majical or a sorcerer? Or, perhaps there was something else to do with female sorceresses which we are not presently aware of (like the mustard seed)? Or, perhaps these laws were meant to apply to both sexes, but interpretation has gotten in the way? Just a couple of logical guesses here. Oxygen, Christians did not even exist at the time. These were social laws for Isrealites during the time of Moses. Christ came much later. The Old Testament recounts the history of the promise and development of God's divine plan for salvation which took into account the "social" conditions existing at the time. For example, there were also laws handed down concerning how to treat Hebrew slaves because, at the time, people either owned or were slaves - Employment of the times, if you will. Male and female slaves were not treated exactly the same, by the way. These are historical issues, Oxygen, not reserved for Christians. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 06, 2000).]
Flash, For some years of my life, my job description was that of professional dealing in the trade of death under the authority of the United States Government. Yes, I have thought long and hard about both my own and God's actions in these matters. There is no automatic pilot when it comes to the things of God. We are instructed to study and to be careful that we don't think that we know it all. Also, it is not the child of God that does the justifying in the relationship. It's the other way around only! Now, I think that I understand were you are coming from in your post. Correct me if I'm wrong. I seem to see you basically saying that there is a lack of regard, involving man, on God's part. Yep, that's basically it. Does that shock you that I would say that? Think about that for just a minute............................................... Before I clarify, let me refresh your memory. Do you remember when, in several times in the past, I pointed out that ....... you can kill yourself with anything you want yet, none of it was given so that you could kill yourself. Moreover, you can't create any new matter with which you can kill yourself. This existance is under the control of God. We just think, because of our vast amount of choices that we have the power. ....... do you remember that??? Well,God IS the one in control here and all despite the choices He allows us to have. Well, plain and simple, He's the maker and controller and we belong to Him. If, at any time, He sees fit that you should make the transition from this fleshly realm to the spiritual, it's His right! We are all spiritual beings He has made. He is the one to control when you do and don't go. God only allows us to interfere. There are still consequences that He brings about even if man refuses to enforce them. O.K., so, what's with this lack of regard for man? The Bible says that God is not a respecter of men. That is to say that He looks up to no one. The Bible also says that man was made lower than the angels. Man is only able to rise above through being covered in, redeemed by, the blood of Christ. The clear relationship is that we are not the big shots here. We are like the computer program trying to tell the programmer to go blow it out of his ear when we defy God. We are, of course, better than any computer programs. The very reason that we have choice is so that we can choose to Love God of our own volition. Unfortunately, you can't give a right choice without the option of not choosing that choice. Therefore, it is black and white. You are either for God or against God. You either choose the plan of the maker or you do not. The life of a person, though important (we are, after all, made higher than much of His creation), is not as impertant as the fact that we are made in the image of God. Not even the angels can say that! To murder and to die in sin (outside of a right relationship with God) is one and the same. In both, you have stripped God of His right to do with your life as He has chosen. The cost is death!!!!!!! The death pennalty is as though it were a physical reflection of what happens in the spiritual. God has the first right and He gives us ours after. Deny Him His right with His image by physical murder and physical death is the cost! Deny Him His right with His image by spiritual murder (going into eternity outside of a right relationship with God) and spiritual death is the cost! The stone that the builder refused will alway be the head corner stone, ISDAMan [This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited January 06, 2000).]
