Kim Jong Il dies at 69

Discussion in 'World Events' started by gendanken, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    9,686
    Bells,

    Interesting.
    Hope that works out well for you.

    Beat to it again by Quadraphonics, this time.

    If that's what you meant by brainwashing, then I'd suggest that that Il ought to hire more effective government employees. Because the wash isn't coming out clean.

    Maybe they should switch to Tide?

    So.
    Could it be possible that Il was also adored as much as he was hated?

    And, do you think that people only adored Stalin for valid reasons such as those you've given?
    You don't think that propaganda and brainwashing might have played a part?
    Little bit?

    What did the Chinese people think of Mao?

    Are you doing more than just looking at pretty words on the screen?
    Just curious.
    There are deeper meanings here, you realize.

    Condescension?
    That's somewhat sad.
    I really didn't think that more elaboration was necessary.

    Do you really not understand what's being said here or are you just pretending?
    I really don't understand your 'strategy' here.
    Ostrich or something?


    Geoff,

    Maybe.

    Read Portuguese?
     
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  3. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Eun, of course. As Il's an ex-parrot.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    23,135
    It is called cult of personality. There are some in NK who believe that he could control the weather for example.

    Understanding the Kim regime's resilience requires an understanding of the tools it has used to stay in power. The first is social engineering—creating a country where the very building blocks of opposition are lacking. North Korea has no merchant or land-owning class, independent unions, or clergy. Intellectuals are regime-loyal bureaucrats, not dissidents, and strict restrictions on the activities of students have cowed them into submission.

    Second, the regime pushes an ideology. The Supreme Leader (suryong) system established Kim Il-sung as the center of a cult of personality. At the core of the regime's juche ideology is nationalism with a xenophobic, even racist, slant. Anti-Japanese sentiment, hostility to South Korea, and propaganda against the United States create legitimacy for the regime. As the regime inculcates its ideology and cult of personality, it strives for tighter controls on information. In the 1990s, after the famine, the regime's control of information decreased and cross-border smuggling grew, but recently the regime has tried to reassert its control.

    Perhaps most important, the North Korean regime is brutal in its use of force. Dissent is detected through an elaborate network of informants working for multiple internal security agencies. People accused of relatively minor offenses undergo "reeducation"; those accused of more serious transgressions are either immediately executed or interred in miserable political prison camps. Even more daunting, according to the "three generations" policy, the regime punishes not only the individual responsible for the transgressions but his or her whole family.


    [Source]

    His use of force, cult of personality and the 'social engineering' does not provide the people with much ability or even knowledge to overthrow the State. The military will never waver as they get the majority of the funding. Younger generations are brought up solely on propaganda and the older generations will remember the brutalities of the past. It is a terrifying mix for that population and the result is obedience. If any resist or do not show proper emotion regarding the Dear Leader, they are either killed or their whole families are imprisoned in the gulag's.. It's a disgusting mix.
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Err...sooo... all right, not to provoke a fight here, but how did you know to comment on denial, crocodile? That was just yesterday. How does a mod put someone on ignore, anyway?

    Oh well.

    Only in English. Are you a Brazilian filmmaker, actor and screenwriter?

    Well, that's a facet of classical brainwashing, nicht wahr? There could be elements of both in the NK population, of course: every Charrington has his Goldstein and his O'Brien... and sometimes even his Smith. I hear there's a lot of Charringtons, mind.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    23,135
    Provides tranquility. Plus gnats annoy me.

    It never can. The scale is huge and over 200,000 people in prison camps shows that it is not that successful and never could be.

    I never said he wasn't. What is clear is that those favourites living in the Capital, the privileged few and those shown on NK media and piped to us will want to remain as the privileged class.

    I also never discounted propaganda. The links I provided pointed to a mixture of population control (not birth control, but behavioural control) and it never discounted propaganda. The mixture is, for lack of a better term, god damn disgusting and disturbing.

    What did the Chinese think of Mao? The fact his portrait still hangs in Tiananmen should say something, shouldn't it?

    Public executions have a way of terrorising people into adoration. Future generations are taught that it was all necessary for the success of the State. Funny that..

    You see, this is what I don't get about you Invert.

    Everything has to have a double meaning. Every word is part of a "strategy". It's all political.

    Just like your occasional forays here.

    Maybe you should stop seeing what isn't there and just, well, be? Where a /Pat is deemed a "strategy", really.. I'd laugh if it wasn't so, well, pathetic. Then again, if I did /blows kiss, you'd probably assume it was a proposal of marriage. One simply cannot win.

    There is no strategy. It was merely a pat. As if to say welcome back. I take it back.

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    Maybe, just maybe, you should not be so paranoid.
     
  9. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Sigh.

    Ok.
    Let's take a step back.

    It's simple, really, Bells.

    Nobody is saying that some people weren't afraid of Il.
    In fact, I believe that it's fair to say that many were afraid of the man.

    Also, nobody is saying that many of those people that are seen in the videos crying are faking it. That they're doing out of fear of repression.
    In fact, I believe that it's fair to say that many of them are afraid.

    However, what also cannot be said is that none of them are crying because they are honestly grieving over a man whom they consider to be a great leader. A man who they grew up being propagandized about. A man who, by your own post (and also Gendanken's by the way) can control the very weather!

    That's the point.

    Propaganda works.
    Brainwashing works.

    Many, if not most of those people, are honestly crying for the man.

    Don't like the term "most?"

    Let's go back to one of your "sources:"

    See that?
    Most.
    Not some.
    Not a couple.
    Most.

    He also brings up that other than mourning was not allowed, of course. But as an afterthought.

    Most.

    You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

    Brainwashing.
    You've mentioned it in every single post you've made in this thread.
    Every one.
    And yet you've failed to accept the consequences of the word.

    That's it.

    Stalin was worshiped by his people. Despite the fact that he killed, exiled, mutilated, etc millions of his people.
    He was worshiped.

    Mao was worshiped by his people. And he did Stalin times 10.
    Worshiped.

    Propaganda works.
    Brainwashing works.

    Is it the end all and be all?
    No.
    There is also repression.

    These are all tools that power groups use to manage populations.
    And there are others, of course.

    And don't think you're immune, by the way.
    Of course, that's another topic altogether.

    Tranquility sucks.
    I've heard that the brainwashed are quite tranquil, by the way. As a point of comparison.

    That's nothing compared to Mao and Stalin.
    And they did pretty well, didn't they?
    You, yourself, gave Stalin a success rate of 50/50. I'd say your estimate is low, personally, but even your numbers discredit your own argument.

    You know, come to think of it, Il's problems pretty much come down to size, didn't they?
    North Korea being so small and lacking enough resources for such a clumsy bull approach as most communist states enjoy.

    China and the Soviet Union survived through mass.
    Parasitism.

    North Korea is nothing but a beggar.

    Cuba, too, for that matter. But the dynamics are somewhat different there...
    Hmm.
    Could be an interesting point of digression.

    Be pretty damned inefficient propaganda to show a bunch of people playing bingo, wouldn't it?
    That's all it is.
    Propaganda.

    Pretty typical, really.
    Totalitarian states use bludgeons for propaganda. Our more "sophisticated" states require more subtle brainwashing techniques.

    Do you really think that public executions really work that well as a brainwashing technique?

    That's part of your problem. You've got all these control techniques mashed together into this big pile of mush.
    They're all separate and distinct.

    Let's get down to specifics here.
    How could public executions be used in brainwashing?
    I could see it working to further entrench belief in the greatness of a regime/leader if those viewing it really believed that those being executed are really traitors and/or criminals and actually deserve the execution.

    Terror, then, wouldn't be the active force, but, rather, righteousness.

    Why do you think all those little Chinese children waved their little red books and had their parents murdered?
    Fear?

    I didn't say "double" meaning.
    I said "deeper."

    Completely different term.

    I expect more in the way... what... Hmm. What do I expect here?

    1. I was on my phone and thus couldn't spend much time elaborating deeply.
    2. I really did assume that more elaboration was unnecessary. The topic is really clear and simple. I thought a concrete example such as Stalin, Mao, and the fall of the Soviet Union would drive the point home, kablow.

    I only said "Mao."
    Carried with the term Mao is about 30 years of history.
    I thought the image...
    Well, hell, why describe it?


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    Is that fear that you see?
    Terror?
    Repression?

    Shiiit.

    Hence, my use of the term Ostrich.
    Hiding your head in the sand.
    You seem to wish to refuse to see and accept a very simple and blatant fact being discussed in this thread.

    It smacks of dishonesty.
    Calling it strategy is more complimentary than calling it ignorance.
    At least dishonesty is aware.

    Well, that's a mighty ambiguous way of "welcoming back", don't you think?
    It comes across as condescension. One pats a child, a dog, etc.
    It's rare that one pats an equal. Or a superior.
    Perhaps it's different in your culture.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    23,135
    I never actually said that was not the case.

    Neither are you or anyone else.

    Wait.. Are you insinuating that I am brainwashed to think he's a worm?

    *Snort*

    I find him annoying, so last night I put him on ignore. I don't come here to be annoyed. I come here to be amused.

    Hey.. Maybe this site is a tool.

    I would consider North Korea to be a manipulative parasite. It receives more aid from the country it hates and demonises the most and Jong Il has managed to get that by using the country's nuclear ambition as a bargaining chip.

    I think few in the 20th century could come close to Mao and Stalin on a murderous and genocidal scale. No matter how hard they tried.

    In that scheme of things, North Korea could be considered small fry. But while others stopped, they have kept going and there is no end in sight. So who knows where those figures will be in 10 years time, if there is a North Korea in 10 years time.

    Never said it wasn't..

    Indeed. Look at the Tea Party.

    The Terror campaign was successful. The propaganda machine made children view their own parents as traitors and the continued executions in all villages only made sure that fear made sure the propaganda worked. I'd call it a vicious cycle.

    And maybe you should read what I had written and the links I had provided. Second source perhaps?

    Do you fail to notice who and where the images are taken? How it is stage managed? Do you see people in the country and farming regions throwing their bodies down and sobbing like mad?

    My culture would result in a "welcome back you dumbarse/boob". If you'd prefer that, I would be happy to oblige.

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  11. Gustav Banned Banned

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    bah
    you just project some quackery on to the n.koreans and go on to infantalize and dehumanize them in the process. you want us to believe that n.koreans today, faced with deprivation and hardship actually buy into the propaganda because they are "brainwashed". it is not simple expediency and self preservation that leads them to maintain the party line. it is not rationality but an actual reconfiguration of the brain's neural network that explains the cognitive dissonance

    funny how this woo theory of the n.korean mind when actually played out by defectors no longer subject to the tools of repression can be shed as easily as a summer tan

    a contradictory word salad
    "understanding and relating" is conceptually opposed to "belief"

    i see. would you then agree that educating humans in their formative years is better characterized as "brainwashing"?
     
  12. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    on a sidenote, "brainwashing" originated during the korean war by way of an edward hunter....

    Mind-control theories from the Korean War era came under criticism in subsequent years. According to forensic psychologist Dick Anthony, the CIA invented the concept of "brainwashing" as a propaganda strategy to undercut communist claims that American POWs in Korean communist camps had voluntarily expressed sympathy for communism. Anthony stated that definitive research demonstrated that fear and duress, not brainwashing, caused western POWs to collaborate. He argued that the books of Edward Hunter (whom he identified as a secret CIA "psychological warfare specialist" passing as a journalist) pushed the CIA brainwashing theory onto the general public. He further asserted that for twenty years, starting in the early 1950s, the CIA and the Defense Department conducted secret research (notably including Project MKULTRA) in an attempt to develop practical brainwashing techniques, and that their attempt failed. (wikishit)
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    I heard the son is a twerp, even worse than his idiotic father....
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    I was wondering the other day: How long after other animals were domesticated (10,000BCE?) that farmers starting thinking about us making relatively docile beasts of burden?

    Also, one can't but help make the comparison with other fundamental co-religiousists and how they act when the center of their cults of personality are profaned... I find it sad, and kind of creepy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    I've actually seen people react to ideas in some pretty interesting ways - especially when they think they are unthinkable. It's interesting. But it's also creepy.
     
  16. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    Or Western consumerism?
     
  17. Trooper Secular Sanity Valued Senior Member

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    1,784
    In all fairness, it is difficult for Americans to understand their mindset. I don't know, but maybe this guy has the right idea.
    How North Korea Sees Itself
     
  18. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    Michael:
    Would you call figs totalitarian?

    Captain:
    Interesting.

    Who's this "poor" woman-- Bells?

    Bells is this ill-bred unfortunate:

    Woman In Wheelchair Gets Sprayed in Face for Calling Black Man a Nigger.

    Allow me to ask: what's the handicap? Her stupidity or the wheelchair?

    Should a vituperative, smarmy, clumsy, troll, with a mouth as big as her intellect is small, be respected because she's in a wheelchair? Is the man wrong to spray the hag in the face, or should he just take being called a "nigger' because the little bigot is old and in a wheelchair?

    I don't take kindly to bumbling wannabes who can't even fake something as simple as narcissism-- specifically those who goad me in other threads and in here by referring to me as a 'twat'-- no matter what "handicap" the thing suffers.

    Invert Nexus:
    Capital, Nexus.

    Represents beautifully the anesthetic effects of communion: a burlesque of fear socially engineered to simulate a non-threatening distortion of slave morality.

    Slave-morality is Lucifer, the Accuser, the halfling who craves to depose god, but its crippled form is a Korean emoting on national television.

    Which is why they're all city dwellers, little slaves who've grown to value another's mind as their own.
    Now, had they filmed angry peasants squatting in mud on the outskirts.....

    But at least she's had time to do her research.

    She had nothing immediately being called on to 'prove it' outside of "Well, obvisiouly...." in a delicious malapropism of what brainwashing even fucking is.


    Which brings us to:





    Bells:
    Like I said: appeals to your feelings and deft use of 'Well, obviously...." with clumsy attempts at haughtiness will work on your children.

    Not here.

    You've actually banned others for not substantiating a claim outside of cute links filled with speculative eyewash.

    You claimed these people -- not those of generations ego weeping over some other despot, which you've sourced-- were being forced into braying like hyenas for The World's Biggest Meanie, as though there were rifles pointed at their skull.

    Yet completely wallowed in irony as you malapropiated the meaning of 'brainwashing'.

    The only thing you gave were sources peppered with 'coulds' and 'possibllies' with Lisa Ling speculating on Koreans.

    In other words, all you had was a gut reaction you then trolled the net to substantiate as someone asked you to do it; no different than this moron speculating on Fox television:

    Hear that?
    He guarantees it.

    We'll have a lesson, then:

    I don't think you're a lawyer.

    Your pedestrian intellect, poor language skills, the absence of precedent referencing in your arguments, that chunky, bulky, emotive strategy of a lowbrow heaving its fat through an argument as it desperately tries to dominate its superior-- those Bells Vs. Wanderer comedies that Xev and I would munch popcorn to, where that tiny mind of yours is getting roasted by the flick of an adverb:

    'member those?

    But I can't prove it.

    There's just something about your fake posturing that screams to me you're not really a lawyer, just some nightschooler who's been certified enough to pretend.
    Yet you won't hear me braying an 'Well, obviously, Bells isn't really a lawyer because the stupid cu......"

    Little hypocrites saddled with children and dumb men have no purchase on mocking.

    You were born to be mocked.

    Insanely.

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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    23,135
    You earn your name. You obsess enough about my cancer and private life to make you a twat in my opinion.

    And all you provided was an example of Latino television and Michael Jackson to prove that it is not.

    And you are too much of a coward to even say the word "cunt". What? Afraid you are going to be banned?

    Ah yes, Gendy the great intellect. Who craves suffering so she can write about it and publish it on amazon. In that sense, you and Wanderer are very much alike. No wonder he adores you so. As much as one can adore a rash I suppose. You are very much the "girl" Gendy. You always have been. Quite pedestrian and common. The one who must attract as much attention as she can, even if it is negative. I guess the books have to sell one way or another...?

    I am a lawyer Gendy. Does that annoy you? Is that why you project?

    Tell me, watched much Latino soap operas to compare the North Korean regime to some more? Really, that was the killer for me. Made me laugh. Hard.

    Again, the obsession. Really, should I be concerned?

    If you want to know, just ask Gendy. Hoping that I provide you with writing material for Amazon by insulting me is childish.

    Do you know what is funnier? I have cancer and am separated, but I am still happier than you are. I still have more than you do.

    The irony of life.

    Now, don't you have some writing to do? Amazon awaits child. Run along now..
     
  20. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    4,779
    Someone else have a go at the woman, I'm done; 'debating' her is like poking jello.

    *Poke*

    Wiggle

    jiggle

    squwak

    wiggle
    Yeah, Lisa Ling starring in "Bitch Sourced me Where, Puto?" and a tear jerker starring your mother in "Mi Cabeza es un Gigante Malt Ball"

    Don't you love this need she has to communicate how hard she is laughing out loud to herself?

    Sociologists call this "relational aggression", and its exclusive to females.

    You can almost hear the Lamaze of her desperate panting to let you know how amusing she finds Polar bears, gum, farting, Jesus, and that thing on your nose.

    Because don't we all know superiority is easiest served with a sweet little giggle and feigned with That Look In Your Eyeball?

    How menacing, this giggling Bells down in good old Australia gently queefing 'cause She's Laughing So Fucking Hard.

    Child.

    It so... "Mean Girls". GRRRRRRR.

    Goodnight.

    -Gendanken
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  21. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Boo. £10 wasted.
    It doesn't mention Bells at all.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting question. On the face of it, it would seem you have my position juxtapose. It's the Farmer who farms, not the produce (meat or fruit). That said, one does wonder if the homely fig isn't gaining some benefit from the farmers labor. That said, usually the farm hired cattle (us) to do the actual farming. Very complex situation we have here.

    At the end of the day, the farmer farms the cattle for it's meat and milk. You are that cattle. It's not totalitarian though. It's much much much more efficient to give the illusion of freedom to the cattle, give some cattle the job of policing the rest of the cattle. Then you'll get all sorts of produce from your cattle farm. Much better than a totalitarian society. The key is to control the measure of wealth and keep the cattle fat and happy and ignorant.
     
  23. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    I am quite happy to be cattle.
    I just want more cattle cake.
     

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