Korea

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Seattle, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    There would be no moving forward if he walks away from it with no punishment. North Korea would not be able to move forward, with a population of 25 million people who have suffered immeasurable pain and suffering under that regime's ruling, if he walks away a free man.

    History has taught us this many times over. Society's that have gone through that level of hardship cannot move forward unless those who commit these crimes are made to pay for those crimes.

    Do you understand now?

    The crimes that were committed and continue to be committed under the rule of that regime should not go unpunished. The North Koreans deserve more than a simple offer of amnesty for Kim Jong Un and his family and regime. He and his regime need to be held accountable.

    Yes I do.

    I studied human rights, QQ. I also studied history.

    Did you?

    And the answer is:

    I don't think you would want to.

    For example, you consider human rights abuses to be something trifle, something that can be washed over. Given you are all for offering amnesty for one of the worst dictators of our lifetime, shows me that you cannot quite grasp the enormity of what Kim Jong Un, his father and grandfather have done to North Korea and its citizens. There are no notes to compare.

    You have also invented scenarios that would ensure China's expansion into the Peninsular, which is ridiculous in the extreme because:

    1) China wants no part of it.
    2) No country in the region would find it (massive expansion into another territory) acceptable.
    3) China does not want South Korea on its border.
    4) China would not want to take control of 25 million people in North Korea.
    5) South Korea and Japan already has a nuclear nation on its border and it is to their detriment.
    6) And this is the doozy, Kim Jong Un would never accept it and would likely threaten war at the very mention of it.

    Remember what happened when the Libya scenario was presented in regards to North Korea?

    *Sigh*

    Of their own making.

    You seem to act as though this happened accidentally.

    And why do you think that is?

    The Kim family have had 3 generations of control over a population, where they have resisted and banned any outside influence from entering the country and any caught listening to, watching, reading, speaking to, anyone from outside of the country are either killed or spend decades locked up in gulags or indoctrination camps, where they are tortured, forced into slave labour, women are raped, their children murdered, forced abortions are common..

    They rule through fear and terror. Anyone suspected of anything and everything, is either killed or imprisoned. They have been conditioned from birth, to believe what the regime tells them. Independent thought is deadly. Questioning the regime is deadly. The regime has indoctrinated the entire population into believing that the Americans and the West are enemies, that they would be killed, eaten, enslaved and subjugated by 'the enemy'.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    • What is the likely hood of the leadership being arrested by his own people today or in the future when they have had over 60 years to do so already?
    • How long are you prepared to allow the NK population to suffer until they, the enslaved people, do arrest him?
    • How many people will suffer torture and homicide not to mentioned forced labor while we wait for your solution to come to fruition?
    You say you are an authority on North Korea. You boast significant knowledge yet display a striking lack of any understanding of the past or current reality.

    I can only repeat what I have already posted:
    IMO. The only way for Korea to achieve a peaceful solution to the issue of re-unification is by offering Kim an amnesty.
    I have offered sound reasoning to support the notion.

    Can you think of any other way, using your self declared authority on the subject, that is reality based that allows a peaceful re-unification to take take place?

    So far you have offered and incredibly implausible "arrest", "bring to trial" scenario with out declaring what you would estimate would be the collateral suffering as we wait for such a most unlikely outcome.

    If you are the self declared authority surely you could provide more detail than what you have ....

    How many people have to die because of your desire for justice?
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The entire population including the leadership have been under siege by the USA and allies since 1954.
    this is further exasperated by the betrayal of trust by the USA with the deployment of nukes in 1956. ( see: paragraph 13d of the agreed armistice)
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Quite likely.

    Despotic regimes such as this one are usually brought down by the populace.

    As long as they need.

    Your solution is to provide him amnesty and protection. And give North Korea to China, like it is yours or even his to give...

    I have no idea.

    You are all for giving him amnesty and literally letting him walk for all of his crimes. You consider human rights to be trifle.

    The alternative is invading North Korea and removing him by force, which no one wants to do for obvious reasons.

    You have made repeated false claims about what I have said.

    I want you to link exactly, where I have said that I am an "authority on North Korea". I said that I knew about it from a historical and human rights perspective. I have never said that I am an authority on the subject. So I would suggest you stop lying, because it is pathetic that a man of your age has to resort to lying.

    And we have responded, with evidence as to why it would not work.

    You have not backed up any of your claims. You are posting this stuff as though it is factual. It is not.

    You keep inventing things and posting them as fact.

    China would never support a unified Korea if it was not under the control of a communist regime.

    South Korea would never want to fall under the domain of a communist regime.

    North Korea's regime would never accept anything but a communist regime under Kim Jong Un.

    These are the realities.
    Again with the false claims..

    I already have. Multiple times.

    And Korea can never reunify in the traditional sense. North Korea is too backwards to suddenly reunify with South Korea. It would take decades of rehabilitation before such a thing is possible. The best people to aid in that rehabilitation are their fellow Koreans. But North Korea cannot simply rejoin South Korea as it stands today.
    All regimes like these fall at some point in time.

    It gets to a tipping point where the people rebel. Kim's grandfather and father, as well as himself, have attempted to hold this back by ensuring the state is entirely closed. North Koreans know nothing of what happens outside of its borders. They only know what their leadership tells them. They are indoctrinated from birth to believe this way.

    But even that will not hold back what is inevitably coming.

    This is the third time you have stated this lie. And it is not your first. You keep inventing things and attributing it to other people.

    It is pathetic, really.

    We have all provided details, QQ. You simply refuse to read it because you are too intent on scenarios you make up in your mind and try to argue could be factual.

    You should ask yourself how many people can a man kill and still be given amnesty and allowed to walk free.

    What's the cut off number for you? The Kim regime has seen to the deaths of millions of people. And you still think amnesty should be on the table? Not even the Khmer Rouge escaped their fate.

    You have gone out of your way to blame everyone else for Kim Jong Un's dictatorship, except for the man himself and the regime itself:

    Poor Kim's.. So misunderstood...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't seem to apply to South Korea. World Cup, Olympics, large number of emigrants to many places, etc.
     
  9. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    5,442
    And, therein lies the dilemma for reunification of Korea?
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    18,550
    so true! you don't
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,550
    According to Amnesty International and the US committee for Human Rights in North Korea in 2017 an estimated 200,000 individuals are incarcerated in prisons that are dedicated to political crimes, and subjected to forced labor, physical abuse, execution and human experimentation.
    This statistic is only one of many associated with the Kim regime.
    Every day that we wait for Kim to be arrested by his people those 200K+ persons are being subjected to the most inhumane treatment.
    The world has been waiting for about 60 years so far with no arrests of the regime leaders happening nor even likely.

    Perhaps you do indeed have an idea, being such an advocate for Human rights justice, but refuse to acknowledge the cost of such justice?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,823
    Well I do, but it would not be something you could understand.

    Something something about having to dumb down arguments goes here, I suppose.

    And what?

    You think Kim Jong Un is going to walk away and just take amnesty?

    How do you think that will fix the problem that is North Korea at the moment?

    Do you actually believe that they will just throw open the gates of the gulags and indoctrination camps (North Korea operates on a 3 generation rule, so if you commit a crime, your children and grandchildren will also be made to pay for that crime in the gulag or indoctrination camp, so these people have no idea of what is going on in the outside world) and all is well again? Tell them that it's okay, you are all Chinese nationals now, so all is great now? Kim meanwhile, is sitting on a beach somewhere, with a cocktail? You think he will go quietly into the night?

    Are you actually that naive?

    Did you actually bother reading what was linked? Here it is again:

    North Koreans have to be the ones to determine their fate.

    As I asked you before, what's a good number for you?

    And now for reality...

    Kim Jong Un's popularity, particularly in the regional areas of North Korea, is waning. People are now voicing their displeasure and showing their displeasure publicly. Even the authorities in these areas are showing signs of dissent.

    When Kim Jong Un had Hyon Yong Chol executed in a truly horrific way, the regime was concerned enough about how the army and military would respond to his murder that they demanded no information be sent out about his execution.

    Last week the North Korean military reportedly issued a directive banning its forces from discussing the execution of Hyon, for fear of “inciting chaos” amongst armed forces, or worse, garnering sympathy for the former minister.

    “Orders from the top have been handed down calling for severe punishments to those who ‘spread absurd rumours’ [about Hyon],” another source who wished to remain anonymous claimed
    .​

    Do you understand why this is important?

    Do you understand why Trump giving Kim Jong Un legitimacy set all of this back?

    He was a leader who was struggling for legitimacy in North Korea. They do not trust him or even really like him. So he decided to purge his leadership, and then was concerned enough to demand that information about his public purges of his closest ministers and aides be kept from the public and military because he was afraid of how they would respond. He had been striving for legitimacy. Hence why he pushed so hard to join the nuclear arms race.

    Trump's meeting literally gave him the legitimacy he craved. He was able to do something his grandfather and father had never been able to do. Walk onto a world stage and shake hands and be friendly with a US President. That set the dissident movement back by quite a bit. But it will not have silenced them. These are people who know that things exist outside of South Korea, that life is not all cannibalism and murder as they had been indoctrinated for generations.

    The more Kim Jong Un purges people now, the weaker he seems to the North Koreans and the more unstable his regime becomes.

    So instead of approaching this like you are the 'great white hope' and taking their country from them and denying them the right to self determination and giving their country to China and offering the man who is their dictator amnesty, how about you start approaching it from the standpoint of North Koreans? You know, since it's their country and all.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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  14. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,823
    Yep.

    And the rest of that paragraph:

    It would be good if our country opens up and the people are able to live decent lives. But opening up will require the regime to change and will lead to failure if the legal infrastructure is not set right,” the worker said.

    The article sets a dissonance between the people in Pyongyang and those who live outside the city walls and are the ones literally paying for it with their lives.

    We should also remember that these are people who believe that an attack is imminent at all times.

    I suspect if further information is made available to them, if their opinion will change. There seems to be a general message in it all though.. Regime change. Which probably terrifies Kim Jong Un more than anything else.
     
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,550
    Bells do you have a solution that allows for the peaceful re-unification of Korea?
    Remember my solution was about a peaceful re-unification.
    Do you understand that regime change by the NK people could end up incredibly costly with regards to loss of life?

    The Chinese intervention I suggested was a separate solution and only applies if they are confronted with a huge humanitarian disaster caused by either the effect of sanctions or violent regime change.

    Why are you mixing the two up?

    are the Tibetans that live in the Chinese autonomous region of Tibet considered as Chinese? Answer: Of course not.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,550
    Start with,
    "If a peaceful re-unification, as suggested by the two signings (NK + SK and NK + USA), is desired then...."
    and go from there...
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,823
    This has been answered multiple times already...

    Did you not read what I said and linked? Any of it? Because this is getting ridiculous.

    Because that is all you have been peddling in this thread.

    This is already a huge humanitarian crisis because of the regime. Instead of feeding his people, Kim Jong Un has decided to develop nuclear weapons instead.

    Millions upon millions are starving as a result.

    "Reunification" cannot happen without a regime change and without decades of rehabilitation for the people and country itself. North Korea is so far behind that to force reunification will result in tremendous hardship for all parties involved. You cannot have reunification on the table for the next few decades as a result.

    As everyone has pointed out to you, China would not want to take over North Korea, and no country in the region would want them to. For obvious reasons. Just as no one would accept amnesty in exchange for a regime change when it comes to Kim Jong Un and the regime itself.

    One of the best countries in the region to help with the rehabilitation would be South Korea. But that would involve confiscating the billions of dollars that Kim Jong Un and his regime have stashed away and using those funds to help the country itself. And even that will not be anywhere near enough. This is a generational thing, in that it will take decades to bring North Korea up to a level where reunification can even be discussed.

    The only thing that can help North Korea now is a regime change, opening the country up slowly to trade and industry (which would entail retraining an entire workforce to work towards helping the country instead of just the regime), helping the country with things like food (which will involve helping them help themselves in regards to agriculture), technological advances, health care, roads, rail, etc.. The country needs to heal. The people need to learn of what exists outside of its borders.

    You are carrying on as though this can happen instantly. It simply cannot.

    North Koreans are starting to recognise that what is necessary for their country is a regime change. People outside of Pyongyang, are starting to get shitty about how they are being treated. And trouble is brewing. The only way to effect a regime change in North Korea, with less loss of life overall, is if the North Koreans themselves push for it. If the rest of the world attempts to force the issue, then we can be sure of a nuclear war. Even a suggestion that Kim Jong Un stands down, could result in a nuclear war. Remember how they responded when the Trump administration even mentioned the Libya model in disarming their nuclear stockpiles.. If the anger starts to spread into Pyongyang, and the elite class become even more dissatisfied with "Dear Leader", if the military continues to show dissatisfaction with his purges (had you read the links provided, you would have seen how the regime is trying to desperately keep them on side), then you will get a regime change. They all recognise that the country has to be opened up more to the world. Kim Jong Un does not want this because he knows that when he does, when the people he and his family have oppressed for generations start to realise that the world outside of its borders are not as nightmarish as the regime has indoctrinated them about, then Kim Jong Un is in huge trouble. If he keeps going as he is, and keeps the country as locked up as he is, he will be in trouble.

    Which is why the last thing the US should have done is give him legitimacy and provide him with that platform in North Korea. The best thing to effect a regime change, is continued sanctions against the regime and trying to flood the country with information about the outside world and how and what Kim Jong Un is really like.

    So forget reunification. That cannot happen for generations.

    Instead, you should be focusing on a regime change and a slow and gradual process of rehabilitation for the country itself.

    You should not be using Tibet as an example. For obvious reasons...
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    18,550
    ok...so,

    that means that the 2 signings were a complete fraud by Kim and Trump, an absolute load of BS. A sophisticated scam perhaps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    18,550
    as posted in another thread:
    and Kim isn't going to give up his nukes either for the same reasons why re-unification is virtually impossible with out an exit strategy for Kim and family.

    all the key players already know this so what are they up to ....?
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,550
    Look, every one is presuming that Trump is an idiot, someone who impulsively offers Christmas presents like some sort of Santa Clause. Kimmy sits on his Trump's knee and Trump says "If you are a good boy you can everything you ask for"
    He nurtures that image just about with everything he says and does.
    He bulldozes the G7
    He deliberately destroys virtually every trade agreement except with Russia
    He launches the world in to a trade war with the USA.
    He is deliberately provoking China.
    He has deliberately alienated the USA from it's key allies, both trade and security.
    He deliberately shakes the security of the Korean region
    He is deliberately destroying USA credibility.
    He has deliberately polarized the USA, politically , morally and ethically.

    And then declares to the world that there is no threat of nuclear war from North Korea. Sheesh!

    Let us assume for a moment that Trump is only pretending to be the fool that just about everyone thinks he is.
    "Nothing creates enmity more so than a policy of removing children from their parents when they seek asylum"
    What ever he is up to it can't be good...(big time)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    5,442
    Here's an interesting take on us military in South Korea:

    "Technically speaking, the US troops in South Korea are not really “defending” South Korea from North Korea in the classical sense. South Korea can defend itself from North Korea, although North Korea can do a lot of damage before they are repulsed.

    The US troops in South Korea are acting as a “tripwire”. If you want to be cynical about it, they are hostages to ensure that the US honors its commitment to come to the aid of South Korea. This is not just a message to South Korea, but to North Korea and anyone that considers aiding North Korea."
     
  22. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    That is interesting. Does it mean we might wish to remove those Americans just in case we want to attack the North (with something other than ground troops)?
     
  23. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    I do not see any value in keeping us troops in Korea nor Japan.
    The leaders seem to have a different perspective.

    .................
    It also seems that keeping the Democratic People's Republic of Korea isolated via sanctions is counterproductive.
    But, then again:
    The leaders seem to have a different perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018

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