Let's all have a big fight over my mortal soul.

Hi,

I'm redarmy11 and I'm a cowardly, fence-sitting agnostic. I is feeling left out.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Theists: show me the Light and the Way.
Atheists: convert me to the Dark Side.

Go.

P. S. You are all mad.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

This could be an interesting discussion if framed correctly and not a thread that appears to be created out of frustrated response to the trolling of other members. Closed for now.

Edit: After receiving a couple of PMs from a couple of members, I've decided to reopen this thread. Please keep it nice.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Ta Skin.

So. Where was I? Ah yes..

Theists, atheists: you are all mad.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

As I see it, there is no more compelling evidence for not believing in God than there is for believing.

In fact, I see no compelling reasons at all for adopting either stance.

What do I mean by compelling? Well, lets say strong enough evidence to convince a neutral like me.

The only rational position, it seems to me, is to suspend judgement until such evidence emerges as to put the existence or non-existence of God (or gods) beyond any reasonable doubt.

Certainly one can say that, given the lack of compelling evidence in favour, it's reasonable to infer that gods probably don't exist. But that still leaves room for doubt, no matter how small. Can we fill that gap with anything other than faith, intuition, personal belief? Doesn't that small element of doubt compel you to join me on the fence, awaiting further evidence, open to the possibility that everything you know is wrong?

It's the 'strong' atheists who interest me most in all of this: those who are 100% certain that no Gods exist. Identify yourselves, please, and justify your position.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Mortal soul...isnt that a contradiction in terms?

A soul by its very nature would be immortal, no?

So, you have to decide whether you have an immortal soul or not...because if you don't, what difference does it make whether Gods exist or not.

If you do have an immortal soul, then you stand the risk of your soul's subjectivity to the will and judgment of possible higher beings.

 

Theism is all about discovering the absolute truth and achieving the highest degree of enjoyment, the point where you enjoy every infinitesmal moment and there is no more suffering, no more anger, fear, sorrow, agony, boredom, doubt, sadness, confusion, or any degree of unpleasantness, one who has acheived this is a perfected one, one who dwells in the kingdom

God is the original one, from which all the innumerable universes emanate from, the primordial one, the self-originating one, how can the concepts like beginnimg, middle or end touch God? He is without origin, the beginningless unchanging, eternal, ever-existing one, he is the source of the highest happiness

What you focus on or concentrate on you achieve, so someone with great faith in God quickly achieves God, their mind is filled with thoughts of God, they constantly focus on God and thus intensely concentrate upon God

 

Carcano: a good point. It was a slip of the fingers. I suppose I meant: do battle over it here now on Earth, and thus save or condemn it for all eternity.

So I'll decide on that first, then. How do I do this?

When you say 'decide' is it simply just a matter of tossing a coin and falling one way or the other - or are there more reliable ways of finding out for sure?

 

Damn, VitalOne, I was right with you there up to here:

So in order to believe in God... I must first have Faith (ie believe in God)?

Where can I find the necessary Faith? Light my fire, baby.

 

For most people it IS a matter of merely deciding...based on whatever they find consoling, or whatever requires the least accountability.

For those with more integrity believing or disbelieving is unimportant...they want to 'know'.

 

You don't have to have faith if you don't want to...you can instead believe in the existence of God and decide to control your mind, body and senses to destroy all your insecurities which cause you anger, fear, sorrow, and all forms of suffering and achieve the highest enjoyment

Either way, let's look at it this way, if atheists are wrong they go to hell or some unpleasant destination, if theists are wrong then there's really no consequence, all that happens after death is deep sleep or no consciousness...which is the better choice?

 

That sounds like the weak atheist position

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

. IMO you're allready in a good spot.

 

There's no such thing as a weak atheist, weak atheists are really just agnostics they just want to claim atheism

 

I want to, I want to.

But that's just so... lacking in integrity. If I believe I have to go to church and pray and everything! I like a nice lie-in on Sunday mornings.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

It'll take a stronger argument than that to get me out of bed and into my best suit.

I agree with this. The distinction seems really fuzzy to me. Would someone like to clarify?

 

Well all you really have to do is believe that God exists, then think of the greatness, wonder, mystery, etc...of God

You don't have to go to Church and pray every Sunday or whatever...rather what's really important is your karma

Many who constantly go to Church condition themselves to the concept that God is "boring", "painful", "unpleasant", "strenous", etc.. and thus avoid thoughts of God (causing them more harm than good), this is the true meaning of why not using God's name in vain

Let us look at what Jesus himself considers most important:

Remember either way if atheists are right, theists still win because after death is no more consciousness, so you would never be thinking that you wasted time or anything

If theists are right, atheists go to hell or some unpleasant destination, and true theists go to heaven

 

I tried this, VO. I have to say that I suffer from slight ADHD, though, and could only manage about fifteen seconds of contemplating the wonder and mystery of God before my mind started to wander - and I started thinking about other wonderful, mysterious things, like dolphins, eyes and stars!

I am starting to feel a warm, fuzzy glow though. It might be Faith, it might be vodka, I'm not sure.

Nevertheless, I do feel like the forces of Light are winning so far. Someone had better come by and pull me over to the Dark side - fast!

Scientists, where is your Faith?

 

I suspect that taking the path of seeking evidence (for or against) will never lead to satisfactory results.

It is already inherent in the process of seeking and collecting evidence, that any evidence is relevant only until new evidence is found.
So the suspense is already inherent in the evidence approach.

Taking the path of evidence, one will always sit on the fence.
I don't mean to make light - but sitting on the fence is not exactly comfortable, and it hurts your bum.

 

So we're all agnostics then. There's no other possible rational position. Yes?

 

If you feel left out it is only because you choose to do so. At anytime you

can convert yourself, transform yourself or enlighten yourself to any of

the "way" you have mentioned as well as others. No one but yourself is

stopping you from becoming who you want to be. Those on either side are

always there to try to convince you their "way" is the only way instead of

believing that any way is the right way to the one who chooses that way.

So become all that you want to become, no one can stop you. I surly want

you to only live and think they way you choose to. You will hear many

stories as to who is right and wrong but in the end you must decide which is

best for you. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong you be the judge as to

who is who. Good luck in finding your path in like and remember you can

always change as many people do and become a hypocrite.

 

I don't think this follows. Perhaps there are some people out there, with special powers, who can directly discern reality ... given that the distinction reality vs. imagination is real ...

Also, (strong) agnosticism is a nightmare to consistently apply and live in.


I am more inclined though to ponder the possibility that the path of evidence might not be the only way to successfully orient ourselves in life.
That perhaps the basis for our actions could be a moral system. Namely, as the recent research into human cognition and decision-making suggests, the important factor for human action are preferences and values (and as such are part of a moral system).

However, preferences and values are sometimes more difficult to name or put into words than that which we consider "evidence" or "facts", even though it is the preferences and values that lead our actions.

This difficulty is augmented by the tendency of the human mind to have biases - such as the one that leads us to think that if something pops up in our mind first, it is the most relevant and true - which is not necessarily so.

 

As the emoticon in redarmy 11's posts intimates, he is unhappy with being left out, he perceives this being left out as something negative. (But do correct me if I'm wrong, redarmy 11.)

You say that he chose this. This is to say he chose an option that he himself perceives as negative or disadvantageous.

Only a person who is evil or cognitively and morally corrupt would choose an option that he himself perceives as negative or disadvantageous.

 

I can't understand why anyone would take up your invitation: 1) it seems disingenuous 2) it has a strange idea about how one comes to believe something....