Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.

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M*W: Correctomundo!

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19970730

 

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I would say exactly the same thing if something I believed in was as contradictory as this event clearly is.

christianity is indeed positioned upon the notion that god came and died, then ressed and buggered off back upstairs, (and will then return shortly to destroy the planet and universe).

If the disciples that were suposedly there can't even agree on the very basics, there's not a lot left of any worth.

But complete disagreement on what god did or did not say, and other such details is not "religious health", nor is it simply "variety of ideas". It is in fact complete and utter contradiction.

 

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They may not have been there for his execution, but they were there for his teachings.

 

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M*W: But how can it be proven that his followers were there? I believe they're all made-up characters representing the 12 signs of the zodiac.

 

But then if their words cannot be trusted in certain instances, why think you can trust them at all? Do remember that these contradictions and disagreements happen all throughout the NT, not just when it comes to the death of jesus.

Here is an example of claimed miracles between the disciples:

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If we are to be honest, (to ourselves if nobody else), we must appreciate that none of these texts and can be considered valid.

We have to consider that all details concerning jesus could be fabrications or misunderstandings. Instead of Mary being impregnated by a sky being, perhaps she was impregnated by the milkman. We must also ask if any of these characters even existed to begin with - and faced with absolutely no evidence other than the words of a few disciples that can't even agree, it's not looking very hopeful.

Indeed it is almost as ludicrous as it would be to accept happeh's claims concerning masturbation.

 

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What ? he's losing the court ?

 

in much of what i have read, many historians/archaeologists agree that jesus could not have been from nazareth because nazareth the town didn't exist until around a century after his death. the nazoreans also were more than just a cult of gnostic jews, they were a lot like what a political party would be nowadays, and they were associated frequently with the zealots, which was a big militant faction in jerusalem at the time.

 

This is due to the priestly social engineers that used ancient symbolism to usurp their power and influence over those they were trying to dominate.

 

Only mainstream Christians think that the words must be literally true in order to have value. When you study early Gnostic Christianity, you realize that the words need not be trusted without question, and that only through personal interpretation accompanied by Gnosis can the hidden meanings be realized. In other words, it was participation, not blind acceptance, that we may know what Jesus was talking about.

 

That isn't really a response to my question. You end your statement with: "that we may know what jesus was talking about", and yet a large part of my post was that you cannot even validate that any such being ever existed or ever said anything - let alone anything else.

To then assume he must have done because a highly contradictory book says so, is "blind acceptance" - even more so when you add that it isn't considered important whether the text can be trusted or not.

 

i find the bolded part very suspect

 

I didn't say he was he was going to lose his case. I simply expressed my opinion of what he's done.

I sincerely hope the case is simply thrown out. As an atheist, I promote the rational viewpoint. I do not want my personal belief of atheism "promoted" by a green-ink brigade vexacious litigant. In other words, a looney.

 

indeed.
also, after his death, they were instrumental to him being called the messiah.
its a very interesting subject, and it kind of sucks that there isnt more actual documentation on it.
they were responsible for christ entering into jerusalem through the (east? west? i dont remember) gateway to jerusalem. the particular gate was called the "eye of the needle". it was built in such a way that a camel with a rider would have a very difficult time entering. thats what the saying "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of G-d" means. hence, he enters on a donkey (a very common and inexpensive animal), to show his humble nature. as we all know, camels are MUCH taller than a donkey.
*shrug*
at any rate, they WERE considered revolutionaries, and were responsible for multiple failed uprisings against rome and the temple clergy.
good job, charles cure! im really surprised that other folks know these things. i will certainly look at your posts a bit less critically now.

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:m:

 

I don't like evangelistic Christianity, why should I like an anti-Christian site which is couched the same sneering and self-righteous manner?

 

This thing about the Eye of the Needle being a Jerusalem gate was simply an old apologetic which basically gave rich Christians a free pass to heaven without (as Jesus may have been suggesting) divesting themselves of their entire wealth prior to being accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. The implication was that a heavily laden camel with all the possessions of a wealthy person could not pass through the so-called "Eye", but by just dropping some of them, then they could. Also it was an explanation for the dichotomy between the huge wealth of the Church conflicting with this very basic message from Jesus about the uselessness of material possessions.

There is also some speculation that he didn't actually say "camel", but more like .. I don't actually know, but "finger"? Anyway, something more realistic and basic, but certainly less strikingly memorable!

 

The words attributed to the character of Jesus are so unlike the religion of the time, and emphasize not the worship of the man, but a profound philosophy of universal love that, contrary to the Christian message, it does not matter at all wether there was a real person named Jesus or not, just like it does not matter that there was not a real person named Lao Tzu. I happen to think there was, since there was no need to create this character, thus the principle of occam's razor applies. The simplist explanation, that Jesus existed, but that his teachings were both misunderstood by many, and deliberately manipulated by others, is the most likely. His rebellious actions were inconsistent with the values of the status quo, inconsistent even with the values of the orthodox church (who are the people that supposedly made him up). Stories of his treatment were the understandable reaction of the establishment, given what we know about them historically.

 

well, you know, im not all retarded bravado and anger. but yeah a lot of people dont know much about the real world that existed at the time the bible stories refer to, ive always thought it was pretty interesting. good call.

 

i never thought you and i would share civil words with eachother...

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cause for a party?

 

Greetings,

False.
Pliny mentions Christians who worship a "Christ".
He never mentions Jesus of Nazareth at all.

Pliny is merely repeating what he has heard from Christians - this is no proof of Jesus at all.

He merely reports Christian beliefs of his later times, not from earlier documents:
* he uses the incorrect title 'procurator' - the term used in Tacitus' time, not Pilate's;
* he fails to name the executed man (Roman records could not possibly have called him 'Christ ');
* and he accepts the recent advent of the Christians, when Rome was known to allow only ancient cults and religions.

Tacitus is merely repeating later Christian beliefs - this is no proof of Jesus at all.

(May I suggest you check facts such as NAMES more carefully? You got them both wrong

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Nonsense.

What we have is 2nd centuries reports of Christian beliefs.

This is not proof of Jesus at all.

Nonsense.

Celsus claimed the Gospels were "FICTION based on MYTH"

Porphyry said the evangelists were "INVENTORS, not historians"

Julian said they worship a "SPURIOUS son" and have "INVENTED" their beliefs. He also noted that contemporary Roman history did NOT record these events and people.


Also,
numerous CHRISTIANS did not believe in a real Jesus :

2 John reports Christians who do NOT
"acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh".

Marcion argued Jesus was a PHANTOM.

Polycarp's epistle refers to those who do not agree Jesus came in the flesh :
"For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist"

Basilides, in mid 2nd century, denied Jesus was really crucified, and the physical resurrection.

Bardesanes, in mid 2nd century, denied that Christ was physical :
"...assert that the body of the Saviour was spiritual;

Minucius Felix, in mid 2nd century, explicitly denies the incarnation and crucifixion along with other horrible accusations.

"...he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men ... when you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross you wander far from the truth",
and also:
"Men who have died cannot become gods, because a god cannot die; nor can men who are born (become gods) ... Why, I pray, are gods not born today, if such have ever been born?"


There is no evidence for Jesus,
but much evidence of myth-making.

Iasion

 

Greetings,

His name is TACITUS.
No,
he does NOT mention Jesus,
he simply repeats Christian beliefs of 2nd century.

His name is PLINY.
No,
he does NOT mention Jesus,
he simply repeats Christian beliefs of 2nd century.

His name is JOSEPHUS.
His famous passage is a Christian forgery,
or at least tampered with by Christians.

It's called the TALMUD.
Centuries after Jesus, it has stories such as :
* Jesus being bastard son of a Roman soldier
* Jesus being conceived during menstruation
* Jesus being STONED to death
* Jesus learning black magic in Egypt

Do you think these stories are true?
If not, why do you bring up the Talmud?

(You just cited 4 pieces of "evidence", and got the names all wrong - do you ever CHECK your work?)

Which tell a completely different story about a Cosmic Christ.

According to modern NT scholars (e.g. Brown),
NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who met any Jesus.

Nonsense.
What others?


Iasion