Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things that may be. Let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex! Hi Dave. Don't zap me yet! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! What's it for? Are there rules? What are yours? Are they related to your spiritual beliefs? If so, then how? When should you do it? When shouldn't you? Who should? Who shouldn't? And why? What about marriage? What's THAT for? What about porno? What about birth control? What about abortion? How do our choices affect our lives and our society? I'm going to hold off on answering this myself til the weekend. I could write a book on this subject as my spiritual beliefs have brought about big changes in this area of my life, and a lot of learning. I thought it was important to talk about this subject because I think that it's a great witness to the Word of God. So let's go! ps - Oh yeah, and what about the fact that not too long ago there was a question on Hollywood Squares, "When surveyed, who did 40%, and may I reiterate 40%, of American men say they would sleep with, if they could pick any woman in the world?", and the answer to that question was Pamela Andersen????????????????????????????????????? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Love it. No time to respond. I may get us kicked off. Just kiding, I'll keep it clean. But golly it's going to be difficult.
Whoa! you've presented us with a veritable black hole of a topic here Lori. To keep it simple, I think humans are capable of attaining sexual pleasure through just about any means one cares to imagine.To me and I'm sure to most people, any type of mutually consented sex with somebody you deeply love is positively the best and most extatic type. But to some, sex becomes the focus of adventure into dangerous and taboo areas such as promiscuity, incest, rape, animal sex and paedophilia to name but a few and I think it's these things that create the stigma surrounding the subject. Sex is a beautiful thing and a vitally important mechanism for emotional release. I think as long as you're not harming anyone or anything, then anything goes so, just do it!
Well I guess if you're not religious then anything does go, but then again is God a Liberal? Are you a Christian or a part time Christian? Catholics have got the right idea, do what you want then say you're sorry. At which point when you do confess, a priest who is supposed to be a Virgin will forgive you. Religion to me is about rules, rules laid down by a God, or somebody claiming to speak on behalf of one. Now even if you live your life without harming anyone else, (therefor good) if you choose to ignore these rules aren't you doomed to hell by the very jurisdiction of your beliefs? Rambling on, I wonder what kind of hanky panky these little grey people get up to, surely they too must pro-create?
Mike "Catholics have got the right idea, do what you want then say you're sorry. At which point when you do confess, a priest who is supposed to be a Virgin will forgive you". That's no worse than saying "I've accepted Christ in my life and I'm forgiven" or "Satan made me do it" or "I have repented". It's a way of kidding yourself that you're not really responsibility for your actions, and is much like blaming your parents for your current problems. I've fallen into this trap myself. The point is "Catholics" are not the only ones guilty of this. You only fooling yourself if you believe this. Me thinks that you don't like Catholics, and me thinks you are a fundamentalist type.
Tab - my friend, you must be cut from the same cloth I am, so to speak. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I heartily agree with your last statement - if it harms no one, why the heck not do it!? Sex is one of those few things in life that can be given over and over and over, and you'll never run out of it. I have more to say, but since I'm at work, I better not. Can't have my boss walkin' in on me while I'm posting my personal views on sex! Definitely not appropriate for work. When I get home, I'll dump my view out, if my stupid computer will cooperate, and if AOL can refrain from kicking me out every 10 seconds... Man I gotta get a new ISP!
Great topic Lori and I will be sure to respond later! Have to drop son off at the airport right now so, chow! Skye - MSN has been great to me at home!!! No problems in two years!
Okay, now that I'm home, I can freely talk about MY favorite subject...SEX!! Wooo-hooo!! LOL! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Alrighty then, as most of you already know, I don't follow the Christian dogma, I don't believe in heaven or hell, or sin for that matter. Having said that... I think sex is similar religion in that as long as what you are doing doesn't harm another person, you should do what you feel is right. I have no problems with premarital sex, open marriages, homosexuals, homosexual marriages, 3-way's, 4-ways, orgies, swingers... I don't particpate in all of these, (who has that much time?!), but I don't percieve any of these things to be "wrong" in and of themselves. Assuming, of course, that all parties there are consenting to this relationship. I'm not trying to say these so-called 'alternate' lifestyles are for everybody, but for those who can handle them, GO FOR IT! Of course, if you are going to have multiple sex partners, disease risk is out there, and so is the risk of pregancy. But assuming you aren't cheating on a spouse, having sex in front of your kids, getting pregnant and then having abortions because you're too stupid or lazy to use protection, or spreading cooties about, (In other words, behaving irresponsibly) you should have every right to participate in any kind of sexual relationship you want to. (I'm referring to adults here, by the way. Don't want this to be confused with my other posts elsewhere regarding kids & sex education.) Society is pretty puritanical, overall, so most people in these types of relationships are quiet about it. Those that do 'come out of the closet' are subject to all kinds of slurs - "fag", "queer", "slut", "whore", "freak", "sex addict"... Somehow your personal sex life becomes this huge thing that overwhelms the rest of your personality to a lot of people. Just today, for example, at work we had a little mini-Christmas party. The big gossip was that the new girl is a lesbian. "Oh my god, you mean she's a dyke?!" Oh, the shock and horror of it! I listened to their descriptive words, I had this forum in mind. What did I hear? Not - "she's a great worker, who cares?" Not - "yah, she's had the same girlfriend for six years" Not - "that's none of our business anyway". I heard instead - "oh, that's disgusting.", "I have to turn my radio way up when her girlfriend calls, I can't stand to listen to her", "no way is she a fag, she's pretty!" and my all-time favorite "I'm going to ask to move desks then. I can't sit next to a lesbian!" I work right next to this lady. She doesn't sit there all day and talk about lesbian sex. I didn't even realize she was gay until someone told me, so obviously she's not hitting on all the girls in the office or otherwise making a fool of herself. I was disgusted by these people, and I finally told them off. Didn't make me too popular, but I just couldn't listen to their bigoted statements anymore. I think my point is that peoples sex life is just that - their SEX life. Has nothing to do with the rest of who they are, and is really not anybody's business but their own. I get ill thinking about the kind of treatment homosexuals get, in real life, in the media, in their families. And that's just one small tip of the iceberg! So my opinion, in a nutshell, is that everyone needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's pants, and mind their own business. If you're monogamous, good for you! If you're polygamous/polyamorous, good for you too! Bisexual, homosexual, transsexual, transvestite, heterosexual... All the same to me, a good person is a good person whether they sleep with men, women, or both. Okay Lori, your turn! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I did not intend on really replying to this...but I must say.. SkyeBlue... I give your reply a two thumbs up!!
^^^Religion to me is about rules, rules laid down by a God, or somebody claiming to speak on behalf of one.^^^ Obviously you can't be talking about Christianity because it is more of a relationship than a religion. Its about having vertical and horizontal relationships. Vertical represents your relationship with God while the horizontal would be your relationship with other people. The Bible is a guide to life. Lots of times people disagree on whether somethings wrong or right. God has told us his opinion on such matters in his book. I think he is a little smarter than us too. ^^^^Now even if you live your life without harming anyone else, (therefor good)^^^^ Sorry, unless your Jesus part 2 this isn't happening. The Bible says all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. You can live a somewhat "righteous" life in the worlds eyes but without accepting Jesus as your savior you are guilty before God's eyes. ^^^^if you choose to ignore these rules aren't you doomed to hell by the very jurisdiction of your beliefs?^^^^ Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the father is through the son. By accepting Jesus we are saved. By not accepting him we are doomed to a world where ther will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Accepting Jesus means admitting you are a sinner. He also says if you love him you will obey him. Also, one way to know if your faith is true or not is by looking at the fruit it produces. My beliefs on sex are as follows (biblical view): Sex before marriage is a sin. Homosexuality may have natural causes but none the less it is a sin. Its absolutely forbidden. Church's shouldn't marry homosexuals either. Porno is bad. Bible says you shouldn't even look at another woman with lust in your eyes. I don't want to get into abortion now. If you want to kill babies thats your problem. Something about a millstone comes to mind... ^^^So my opinion, in a nutshell, is that everyone needs to keep their nose out of everyone else's pants, and mind their own business.^^^^ What if this person really believes in their religion? What if they really think judgement awaits and hell is a real place? Wouldn't they be doing a good thing by trying to stop you from sinning and get you to accept Jesus, thus keep you out of hell? I'm not saying those people at work were right. They sound as if they think their crap doesn't stink. I'm still in high school and its amazing what other fellow students say. "If a gay person even talks to me I'll bust him in the eye." What amazes me more is that we even have so called adults acting like this not wanting to sit next to someone because they are different from them. Vinnie Praise Jesus!!!
Vinnie, Yeah, and I think the church should keep it's vertical nose out of the horizontal relationships of consenting adults - know what I mean??? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
SkyeBlue I don’t think I could have put it any better than you have and agree with you 100 %. You said it so well I see no reason for to say the same thing you have and not nearly as well. One thing I’ve noticed is that the people who holler the loudest about sex are the ones who have the hardest time controlling their own sexual drive and desires. This was not a scientific study mind you and I admit I’m generalizing, but I do believe this. Us guys are the guiltiest of getting crazy about these kinds of lifestyles. You ladies may gossip about it, but us guys get violent.. I think is is because men are scared to death someone will think or say we are gay. I know someone is going to come on talking about what the Bible says about these lifestyles, but I believe what the Bible Scholars say about it, and nearly all the Scholars I read or have herd seem to think that the Bible was taking not so much about homosexuality being the evil as it was about how the people treated the strangers in Sodom and Gomorra. Since I have never felt that Bible Scholars had any particular reason, other than ego, to snow people, I’ll believe them before I’ll believe some bastard who is trying to get attention and more people in the churches by putting fear or hate of something in peoples minds and making fortunes doing it. It’s strange that all at once Jerry Farwell changing his dialog on this issue. Could it be that election time is coming up and he’s backing off thinking he might gain more support for the candidates he’s supporting ? Or perhaps after the shooting in the Baptist Church about a month ago has made him realize he would do best to calm his hate message down a little since some of his own are getting a little bit of the shit they put out ? No way in hell do I trust a money hungry ass hole like him. Well I won’t ramble any more, I just had to put my two cents in the pot. P. S. I did this post on word and see some has already posted a response that refers to the Bibles reference to the subject. I’ll simply say I don’t buy it. ShyeBlue I never have read the data on the WICCA. I'm very involved in the Y2K panic at work and haven't had time. [This message has been edited by Zappers (edited December 04, 1999).]
Lori, About sex, you asked: I've been pondering your questions, and I'd like to put it this way: I can imagine nothing more beautiful, pure and meaningful in life than the sexual life of two individuals, married in the eyes of God, engaging totally... emotionally, physically and spritually... in the human sexual act which was meant to proliferate the species which was created in God's image... with no inhibitions of mind, body or soul... their bodies becoming one... for a lifetime... totally at ease... comfortable and peaceful within themselves, with each other and with God... lovingly, patiently and selflessly giving of and to each other and God... reaching the most powerful, simultaneous, multiple orgasms, never before imagined... over and over again throughout their lifetime... in the eyes of their loving God. The lives of the children which might be created from this type of love need not be prevented, for they are true gifts from God. This type of love creates no need for porno, birth-control or abortion and the love which abounds in society from the proliferation of such families is great, powerful and positive. Being blessed by God, this type of love cannot be matched. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 04, 1999).]
Ilgwamh, This original sin stuff makes me sick! It's a sorry attempt to make others feel guilty about being themselves and control. As long as the people involved are adults and agree upon the act they are not hurting anyone. they know the risks and by chosing to do it they accept the any repurcusions wether good or bad. As for porno whats wrong with it? ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born
666, I can quote some statistics about the effect of the increase in pornography on the increase in crimes against women, children and animals if you'd like. As for what is wrong with pornography, if anything? You be the judge: Although many indulge, by its very definition, pornography is "intended" to excite "lewd" and "lecherous" feelings. Lewd feelings are defined as licentious, lustful, obscene, originally wicked and vulgar. Lecherous is defined as inciting lechery... Lechery being excessive indulgence in sexual activity, prurience (obsessive interest in improper matters, especially of a sexual nature) or lasciviousness (characterized by lustfulness - overwhelming sexual desire or craving, especially that which is excessive or unrestrained. To have an inordinate or obsessive sexual desire). As far as I can determine, pornography is one way for "Lucifer" to have his way on earth. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 04, 1999).]
""""As long as the people involved are adults and agree upon the act they are not hurting anyone. they know the risks and by chosing to do it they accept the any repurcusions wether good or bad. As for porno whats wrong with it?"""" Who made you God that you can go around stateing what is right and what isn't? Why is hurting people bad as your post implies? Please explain where you get your moral values from and how you know they are right. On what do you base your epistimology? It's ok to perform any act as long as everyone agrees on it and it doesn't hurt anyone according to you. This is infinitely true because with your infinite knowledge you posit it to be infinitely so. """This original sin stuff makes me sick! It's a sorry attempt to make others feel guilty about being themselves and control.""" You think your a good person it seems. Sorry. The only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell. Vinnie Praise Jesus!!!
Ilgwamh, Try looking in the mirror and asking your self the same question. I don't need to be a god to say what I belive. An opinion was asked and I gave mine. Is an opinion wrong or right or is an opinion just an opinion? If some guy desides to engage with another male who feels the same way he has harmed no one. I belive hurting another person with out provocation is bad, becuase you are striping someone of thier basic human dignity. Thats a good question. I belive every one has a basic set of morals, more correctly can determine right from worng due to empathy. The rest is most likely taught to us and learned through experience. I never claimed to have "infinite knowledge" . Ware did you get that from? Thanks for the compliment though. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If we all deserve to die and go to hell, Why don't you lead by example? ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born
Truestory, I know of the statistics, but there is a basic problome with statistics. Depending on ware you put numbers, how you phrase the questions, or what key pices of information you chose to leave out they will tell you exactly what you want to hear. For example, hear in California when ever they what to pass a new law regarding car exhaust polution the law makers will proclaim that cars produces something like 80% of the polution in the air. What they don't tell is that car exhaust makes up 80% of the 5% contributed to all motor vehicles making the problome seem worse than it realy is. There will allways be people who abuse things. People can abuse just about anything. I have known people who over do the pron. I belive that when it is not abuse, just like anything elese in life, it can be a healthy form of release. Did these statistics tell how many of thses people would have been prone to comit a sexual asault if they hadn't been into viewing porn? ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 05, 1999).]
Truestory-- Unfortunately, there is also a frightening correllation between milk sales and rapes. Researchers attempted to figure out if there was a biochemical reason and apparently gave up on the grounds that it was too subjective. If I recall, a similar statistical correlation exists between alcohol and rape. I could write a survey that would easily demonstrate the link between religious families and father-daughter incest. I think the damage of pornography is twofold: there is an excitement and guilt that comes with being young and getting your first dirty mags--it is a similar guilt to any number of sex-related guilts developing psychologies endure; secondly, as we see with the internet, pornography can devour large blocks of a person's time quite easily. Ilgwamh-- * "Obviously you can't be talking about Christianity ...." Okay, that's just a wonderful example of something I've never been able to put words to: the inability of people of faith to imagine how other people perceive them. Oh, and if one-billion people are arguing over how to obey a book I can find in a motel with hourly rates ... well, I guess yeah, the author is kinda smart. I think, though you ask a vital question: "What if this person really believes ...?" I would ask in turn Why one believes. Is it more important to the whole of the Plan that people live properly, or use the "correct" names? Another aspect of that is a classic political trap in the United States. I began learning liberalism about beginning of the Dark Ages, er, the Reagan years. I remember the idea that people should tie themselves in knots if they must in order to understand what motivates one's "opponent". Thus I learned accomodationism proper to an extent. But I cannot recall when my conservative "opponents" were ever obliged to make the same efforts. * "Who made you God that you can go around stating what is right and what isn't?" I think that, technically, if all things are of God, then God is of all things. If all things are God, then I guess anyone, therefore, is God, and can go around stating what's right and what isn't ... for their own special selves. What I don't understand is how things went from Jesus criticizing the hypocrites to a Church whose history is rife with the tragic need to demonstrate their piety at the expense of human life. Even if we stop, say, at the Inquisitions, and examine it in an academic sense, how did Jesus' ministry develop into such monstrous things as "Malleus Maleficarum"? How did God's infinite mercy reduce two villages in the Bishopric of Trier, Germany, to a single childbearing female apiece? What the heck is it that is eating at the body Christian? * "The only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell." You know, that sounds grim. You oughta try Wicca or atheism or suicide. Any of the three is a bit brighter of prospect. thanx, Tiassa ------------------ "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock) [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited December 05, 1999).]
""""Try looking in the mirror and asking your self the same question."""" I don't need to. I'm in sales, God is in management. He makes the rules, I just relay the message. """I don't need to be a god to say what I belive. An opinion was asked and I gave mine. Is an opinion wrong or right or is an opinion just an opinion?""" So you don't put much stock in your own emotions? Whats right and wrong is really just an opinion? Your saying there is not an absolute truth? """" I belive hurting another person with out provocation is bad, becuase you are striping someone of thier basic human dignity."""" Why, in your opinion, is 'striping someone of thier basic human dignity' bad? """If we all deserve to die and go to hell, Why don't you lead by example?""" Sorry, I'm going the other way Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! but I do agree with you on one thing. Statistics can be very misleading. """"Okay, that's just a wonderful example of something I've never been able to put words to: the inability of people of faith to imagine how other people perceive them."""" I know how non-christians feel. I've only been one for a year. I remember thinking of how gullible those churchies were and asking angrily where God was at and why he allows bad stuff to happen. Saying there isn't any evidence to believe in God. Some of my friends at school thought I was brainwashed when I became a Chritian. One kid who is an athiest said something along the lines of 'You were like the biggest athiest I knew and now all of a sudden you believe in God.' I know exactly where non-christians come from. I stopped caring about what the world said. I realized how worthless morality is without an overlying truth. That there is no real right and wrong without an overlying truth. Its hard when you know in your head it is completely wrong for someone to kill a child or an adult but you logically can't explain why. Your emotions say its wrong but logic says otherwise. We are all just atoms. Whats the difference between shooting a wall and shooting a person? Your hitting atoms either way. I was in a real slump in this time of my life. I stopped caring, I didn't want to do what the world wanted me to do. I used to disagree with people even if deep down inside I really agreed with them just for the sake of disagreeing. I realized how superficial and stupid this "world" was and is. Science, which most christians seem to be afraid of, helped me come to my senses and open up my eyes. I still don't understand why I didn't commit suicide. I thought about it a lot. Life was grim. God, most likely, just wouldn't let me. """"What I don't understand is how things went from Jesus criticizing the hypocrites to a Church whose history is rife with the tragic need to demonstrate their piety at the expense of human life. Even if we stop, say, at the Inquisitions, and examine it in an academic sense, how did Jesus' ministry develop into such monstrous things as "Malleus Maleficarum"? How did God's infinite mercy reduce two villages in the Bishopric of Trier, Germany, to a single childbearing female apiece?"""" I don't understand it either, actually I do in a sense, but I couldn't explain it because I don't understand it well enough. Like I said, the only thing any of us deserve is eternal death in hell. The truth may be grim but that doesn't stop it from being the truth. """You know, that sounds grim. You oughta try Wicca or atheism or suicide. Any of the three is a bit brighter of prospect.""" Suicide is self-murder which makes it a sin. I don't know much about wicca, can't comment on it. Athiesm is athiesm. You know the drill. I don't want something because it seems nice, I want the truth. """"I think that, technically, if all things are of God, then God is of all things. If all things are God, then I guess anyone, therefore, is God, and can go around stating what's right and what isn't ... for their own special selves."""" Am I agreeing or disagreeing with that statement? You figure it out... Romans 2:12-15 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." My apologies to Lori for side-tracking off the original topic. I tend to chase rabbits... Have a great week everyone!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Vinnie GBU Praise Jesus. [This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 05, 1999).]
