666, Hi. Good point. First... let me say that I do not necessarily share every view on that website. Second... actually, there is a link on that page which addresses just that... porn for women and women as consumers of pornographic material. The main question which that website addressed was, "Is pornography harmful to women?" Perhaps there are others which address whether or not pornography is harmful to men? (Ted Bundy seems to think that it was the only underlying factor which caused him to deviate). As for my opinion on how porn "for women" affects men in the long-run... Let me just say that the affect on men is not due to something that "women generally have MORE of" it is due to something that "women generally have LESS of" and that is "testosterone". Although women can be very assertive, women do have less of a tendency to act out agressively and violently. In general, as I have alluded before, I believe that porn hurts society in general... That would include men, women, children and animals in some cases.
I'm pretty torn on the whole porn thing, myself. I consider myself to be an extremely liberal person, where sex is concerned. In my book, anything that doesn't hurt another person, or infringe upon their rights in any way is perfectly acceptable amongst adults. So the question for me really IS - does porn cause harm? I can't figure that one out, I puzzle over it every couple of years, and still haven't found the answers. I'm not a Christian, so the whole sin/hell/satan thing is irrelevant to my definition of "harm". Porn doesn't really appeal to ME, but then again, I'm female and porn seems to be primarily slanted towards a male audience. My husband used to look at porn, but he couldn't face me about it. I didn't get angry or freaky about it, but I DID want to discuss it with him. He had a real hard time with that, he was ashamed of it. So that makes me think that it's bad, at least for him - otherwise why be ahsamed? He knows how liberal I am, he knows I have an open mind, he knows I wouldn't divorce him, or break up or even yell at him... So HE must think it's wrong and that's why he couldn't stand to talk about it. Know what I mean? When I see porn, it doesn't shock or offend me. The really explicit stuff is just gross, as far as I'm concerned. The REALLY weird stuff kinda scares me - the S&M kind of stuff - now THAT stuff I do have a problem with, but Playboy (Pornography-lite, I call it) is not offensive to me. Some of their photographs are actually pretty artistic (sometimes, not always). I do appreciate the beauty of the nude body - I have several lovely black and white photographs of nude men and women - not sexual, but more sensual, I suppose. They're not sticking fingers into themselves, or grinning past a faceful of white goo...ugh. Just posing alone, or together, in respectable poses. But I don't consider that porn - it's not designed to elicit the sexual response. But I DO have a very sexy photo of my hubby that I wouldn't part with. MMMmmm, hmm, that man is fine! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But he's not even completely naked in the photo, so I guess that doesn't count. Maybe it's just me, but I don't get aroused by porn. Perhaps because I'm female, perhaps because (Like you Lori) I figure why bother with a photo when there's a warm loving body so handy?? But I think porn can be many things to many people. I think with the Ted Bundy types out there, porn is more of a symptom of a bigger problem than the cause of the problem.
Truestory, After your last post I did a little more searching on that site. I didn't find anything about porn for women Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! . Allthough I did find this and thought it was kinda interesting. Another thing I found interesting was the "free speach v's civial rights" section. Both seemed to at such extreams, and seemed to present conflicting information. For example the civial rights side state the presence of porn contributes to sexual assults. While the free speach side cites that Japan which has fart more violent porn than the us , but yet has a lower amout rape per 100,000 capita. Makes it all the more confusing. I do agree with you that in most cases men ar more agresive the women. I belive that cultural up bringing has a lot to do with it to. Men need to be tuaght when they are boys what it means to be a Man. A penis is only the physical part. Of course this blends this whole thing into the family unit and such. Just as a side note, a while back I was reading an article about this very subject that addressed not only the other side of the feminist movement, but the importance of a father in a boy's formitive years. It asserted that there are things that a mother can only teach her daughter about being a women and like wise that there are things that only a father can teach his son about being a man. ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 08, 1999).]
Before I became a born again christian, I used to occasionaly enjoy hard core porn. While I was a b a c I couldn't stand to watch it, it offended my christian heart, I could feel the exploitation of the actors, I could see the bruises on the womens thighs, I could imagine them being drugged and forced to do these despicable things, it was awfully sad. Now that I'm not a b a c anymore, I can enjoy hard core again, I don't feel guilty about it, I can see that most of the actors have great bodies, look healthy and seem to do their job with relish and they get paid handsomely for it! you could say I'm a porn again non christian. Ofcourse I know that exploitation does go on, but exploitation is insidious in every industry isn't it? Does it lead to rape? only if you have an aptitude for it. If you're the type of person who can gain pleasure from physically dominating/violating another then you can probably enjoy raping and you wouldn't need to watch porn necessarily, in order to get that urge. But undoubtedly I'm sure it helps! having said that, I'm sure lots of other things may be able to trigger a rapists urges, it may be alcohol or drugs, it may be the smell of a perfume or the sound of a song, it may be a memory recall of his hateful mother that pushes him, in any case it's psychological and not the exclusive fault of porn. Is porn addictive? I think that as with any mood altering substance, an addictive type of personality can get hooked on porn, that is, he would want to use it every day. We know that addictive personalities usually have other deep rooted problems which cause them to be like that, but if it makes them happy, what's wrong with being hooked? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating withdrawal from society, family and friends in order to immerse yourself full time in your favourite vices, while neglecting your health, wealth and happiness..no. But as my dear old great gran'ma used to say, "a little bit of what youse fancies, does you good m'dear!" Is porn positive? It can help men and women attain sexual arousal and autorelief, in many instances this can be desirable. While your husband is away for two weeks on business, would you rather he visited a whore? had a mini affair with the hotel maid? or watched a movie and had a w*nk? It can help sexually jaded couples to get in the spirit and get it on. It can teach you new tricks, yes you too. Tracey Lord! I'm porn agin'.
Wow, all I can say is that I'm sorry Tab. You seemed to illustrate very well how being born again changes your perspective and perception. What in the world happened that now allows you to rationalize ignoring this perspective now? 666, You asked what is wrong with a little lustful sex now and again, as long as no one gets hurt. You advocate pornography as long as no one gets hurt. I think that the fact that someone can get hurt means something. I think that the act of sex comes with rules, because the act has consequence, like most anything else. So what are the rules, and who made them up, and why? And this same arguement applies to lots of things other than sex as well. The question always comes down to where do you draw the line you know? I say that God draws the line, and where He draws it is for our own benefit. You say that we draw it, and we draw it where ever the hell we want to, as long as we don't cross over someone else's line. And I'm saying that where God draws the line makes sense to me for a lot of reasons, because of my own life experience and with what I see in the world. I'm going to try to explain it... I'm going to get personal, which I don't mind a bit, as I am a big honesty advocate, and I like to be as scrutinous with myself as I tend to be with others, which people really hate that BTW, but it's the only way I know how to learn the truth. Truth is I'm a real horn-dog. I just don't think there are that many better ways to spend your time than having sex. And truthfully, I'm extremely lustful, I just don't sugar coat it when I see it. I recognize it for what it is, and adjust my reaction to it accordingly. Well, now I do, but I didn't used to necessarily. The way I feel about lust is...sex is like pizza, when it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's still pretty good. Literally. My idea of a good porno is the 1968 Elvis comeback TV special. Mommy help me. Or how about the movie "Legends of the Fall"? Worst movie I've ever seen if my life. I swear, was there ONE scene in that whole movie that wasn't tragic, and that wimpy ass woman sobbing every 5 seconds? Geez. But I tell you what I'd watch that movie over and over and over, cause I'm not paying attention to the stupid story ok? Me and Brad are off in la-la land gettin' it on. Yea, I could tame that beast alright. And that's what it's like for me to be with a man, and there's just nothing better than that. And quite honestly, there are a hell of a lot of men out there that turn me on when I think about having sex with them. And even more honestly, there have been other things that I've found that do so as well. Even things that make me feel sad and empty when I focus on what they represent. For example, not too long ago, I was in this club and man, I got an eyefull all right. A place called Connections in Louisville. Yea, I'd say there were some connections going on there all over the place for sure. I'd been to clubs like this before, after hours dance places, lots of "club kids", and people just out to get laid. Sex is like some "exercise" and everyone is so concerned about how fabulous they are. Within 5 minutes of being in the place, I saw a guy who was only wearing underwear anyway (not even nice looking ones, I'm talking fruit of the loom briefs, ok?), pull them down to show off his thingy. Not many guys had their shirts on, some wearing g-strings, some in chaps with nothing underneath. I go to the restroom, and the doors to the stalls are real low so you can see someone face to face if you're standing up. And in the corner stall, which is bigger than the rest, there's at least four girls in there "in a huddle", and I'm standing on the other side of the door looking at them like, "excuse me, but do you mind, I've gotta pee?" This little blonde turned around and looked at me on the way out. You could tell she was just sooooooo wasted. I know what that looks like, and she's just standing there swaying back and forth looking at me like she'd like me to join the party. I must have had a look on my face because her friends quickly removed her from my way. I was there with a friend, and me and her were there drinking and talking about religion of course, debating of course, so we were oblivious to most of what was going on by choice. But one time when she went to use the restroom, I sat there and tried not to watch that blonde chick and one other chick from the bathroom stall absolutely grinding on top of each other on some couches right across from where I was sitting. It turned me on for sure, even though I thought that it was one of the most pointless, meaningless, sad things I'd ever witnessed. It's contradictions like that that illustrate my faith to me, and the reason I seek the truth in the first place. In places like this, God just slaps me right upside the head. The hollowness, meaninglessness of it all, and where it comes from. The sadness of knowing that everyone in that place really just wants to find someone to love them for who they really are, just like everyone does. By the time I left a place called the Warehouse in Cincy, I was physically sick to my stomach. I couldn't help it. Anyway, so the point is that LOTS of things can turn a person on, some good, some not so good. You can agree with that right? It just makes the point that there are rules that exist, so what are they and why? To me, it always comes back to an ideal which God created for us. I find that the best sex is based upon love and trust and committment. Life-long committment, and don't ya know that's exactly what best fosters a child's development, the child being the ultimate consequence of sex. And it's exactly what is spoken of in the Bible about marriage. Sex is supposed to be intimate and sacred and cherished between two people who have enough trust in a commitment to be able to enjoy it in an ideal sense. A way that I really think none of us even can probably imagine to the fullest extent. But I do think that if we're all really honest, we can see the difference that the rules make. We justify settling for less though, because we're weak and give in to temptations that we all have to one degree or another. That's sin isn't it? Man, I've been on here forever. Got to go. Later. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 12, 1999).]
Lori, About Brad Pitt, although blonde hair and blue eyes isn't normally my type, I'll make an exception for Brad. And he did look particularly good in that movie! By the way, what was that movie about? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I prefer the Johnny Depp type, as far as looks go (although he tends to play some really strange characters in his movies). I particularly liked Johnny in Don Juan DeMarco - what a cutie! Or how about the singer/lead guitarist in Indigenous - Mato Nanji? He's not all that photogenic, but in person - whoa! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! As for Connections, although I hardly consider myself a prude, I couldn't have stayed in a place like that long enough to see that guy show his thingy, or to have to use the restroom, for that matter! Yuck! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
To interject my thoughts on pornography.. my opinion is that if people like the stuff, they are welcome to it. It can get extremely digsusting (from my point of view anyways), but you know what they say.. to each their own. What I do object to is the people who say that pornography leads to rape or other sexual crimes. I file suggestions like that in the circular file next to 'playing violent video games leads to violence'. Whoever says that is simply offended by pornography and doesn't know enough to keep their mouths shut about it. It is coincidence, not causality. Or perhaps there is causality, but in the opposite direction; in other words, maybe sex offenders are more likely to look at pornography than law-abiding citizens. However, any way you look at it, somebody who commits that crime had to be rather 'messed up' in the first place. If playing 'Quake' is going to make your first grader go in to school and shoot somebody, you should have taken him to a psychologist rather than handing him a computer. FyreStar
Dear Lori, 'reasons to be cheerful part 3', why did I change my perspective? The answer is, that my perspective is still basically the same, only wider, because I have followed my heart and brain and taken a step back. Why did I reject the faith you find so inspiring? Well for one, I just couldn't stomach the politics of it, eg. god made man (Adam) from scratch, using earth and water, then he breathed life into him. After a while god noticed! that Adam was lonely and could do with a mate. I'm sure it must have been a great surprise for god that Adam was lonely, I mean how could it have even crossed his mind? Anyway, what does god do, does he make another man, so that Adam can have a good old fashioned platonic buddy? no, god decides in all his wisdom not to actually make another man from scratch but to make a WOman using only a spare rib from Adam. A spare rib! what a classic way to make women feel insignificant and unworthy. Woman, an afterthought, a spare rib of a MAN, belonging to MAN, existing purely to serve MAN (and god)who is her reason for being given life in the first place. So remember Lori, YOU, a WOman, were made by god, as an afterthought, simply to be of service to men and don't you forget it! To carry on, why did god make a female? a female is equipped with the capacity to conceive and reproduce, something which sometimes incurs great agony and often (as in the past) death. Why did god make Eve ready to take on that role if she wasn't meant to suffer? It means that god knew that satan would deceive her (as she was only a weak willed woman ofcourse) and it puts paid to the notion of freewill, because everything is obviously contrived and planned by god! Later in Deutoronomy, the apparent message from god involves stuff such as burning the bed clothes your wife may have discharged in, not touching your wife at all for around a week during her menstrual cycle and in fact moving out of the home altogether during the period. Mysoginism continues. Lori, 'you a woman? ugh..you're not menstruating are you? yucks, Im logging off! Please don't be offended Lori, nothing personal is intended, I'm just trying to make a point of the way women are promoted in the bible and why I couldn't take it anymore. Later on the bible forbids women to speak in the church, new testament as well. God doesn't seem to put much faith in women does he? Ofcourse you're going to say, 'but christians don't behave like that' or, 'but Jesus came to change all that' or you're gonna give me some clever interpretation or explanation that I've got the wrong end of the broomhandle, but unless you can come up with a good excuse for the horseshit, I cannot accept the rest of that book, except as one of the most cynical and powerful political tools ever devised. And so we come to christianity, Jesus apparently came to fulfil prophecies made in the old testament (which is full of political propaganda devised to humble and subdue the proles) and this is how devout believers attest to his credibility. So If I'm going to believe what it says in the new testament I have to accept and believe the old testament as well. A religion which I see as being very clearly contrived by man, in order to control! Well, for all the above reasons, I cannot accept the old testament and by default, neither can I naturally accept the new. As it, is inextricably combined with the old. As far as I know, and I stand to be corrected on this, my lay knowledge of the bible tells me that the new testament was originally written in Greek, around 100 years after Jesus died. There are very few remnants of the original manuscripts in existence if any and the official bible has always been worked on and revised by special monks in absolute secrecy. Apparently a lot of stuff has been censored or omitted from the bible over the millenia and it makes you think about how distorted the actual thing is!!! And here's something else, fresh and from the gut! How do we even know the accuracy of the original Greek manuscripts-written a hundred years after the fact. Ever heard of chinese whispers? How do we even know for a fact that Jesus changed his disciples names to Greek ones? I think it's more than likely that the writers added this as a ploy to attract their new recruits to the faith, Christianity having originated in Greek speaking cultures. I think I've made my reasons pretty clear, think about them Lori, I know that christians have a hard time thinking about stuff like this because they think it's coming from Satan, but it's not Satan it's all a state of mind. God and Satan are a state of mind. This is why I can partake modestly of the carnal pleasures of this world by using logic and discretion and without feeling guilty that I can enjoy my senses. I just changed my state of mind..'s all. I perceive from your posting that you definitely like to take walks on the wild side, am I wrong? I think you enjoy the challenge of getting so close to something you would probably dearly love to do, (even as occasional recreation) but avoiding it. I think this may be why you have swallowed Jesus whole so to speak (pun int), because you may be afraid of what you may get up to if left to your own designs. I've got a very good friend who chose christianity for this very reason, he knew that he could be outrageously promiscuous if left to his inner desires and Christianity acted as his therapy to subdue him. Speak later
Tab, I just wanted to say that I think your last post is right on the mark! And quite amusing, as well! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I don't understand why Christians are so blind to these points, except that maybe it's one of the requirements of being a Christian. How can you be a Christian if you question any of the golden bits of wisdom the Bible is filled with? It's a clever way of keeping control of the masses, I suppose - but it's not for me! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Tab, Imagine me doing the Wayne and Garth "I'm not worthy" bow. In your last 2 post you stated the thoughts I could not find the correct words for! ------------------ The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world -Max Born
tab- Rounds and rounds of applause from my camp. We are physical creatures, we have physical needs and desires. Abstinence is for monks.
You guys are soooooooo obtuse. No one on this forum is advocating abstenance. Only responsibility and glory to God. We were given a gift, I think it's safe to assume that God wants us all to have great sex, he just wants you to realize what it's for, and how it should be done. There are rules, you guys think you make them up, I think God does, and you know what? I bet that God's rules lead to 100X better sex than your own rules do, and there's a reason for that. Abstinance is appropriate only as an alternative for sex for the wrong reasons. Get that? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori - Heh, heh, God's rules leading to 100X better sex?? Wow, hey, that's pretty awesome. I think if sex got 100 times better, I'd be passing out halfway through every time! Zang! Pow! (Pass out) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yea, remember how we were talking about loveless sex, and how sex when you're in love, and the right emotions, and trust, and committment is there, how it's sooooooo much better? If I'm not mistaken, it was Searcher who felt the need to take pity on me because she/he thought that I had never had sex with someone I loved and was committed to. Well, Searcher was wrong, and I do know the difference it makes, and so does everyone else on this board, except maybe Tab, who seems to be evil incarnate, and can be used as an excellent example of why it is we all seek the truth. Because we sure as hell don't want to end up that ****ed up, eh? I'm talking about abstinence INSTEAD of settling, not instead of doing it, and doing it for the right reasons. That's your whole arguement in every circumstance about God. "Oh, that big meanie God! He doesn't want me to have any fun. Waaaaa!" Well, guess what? You couldn't be more wrong. God wants you to do it right, and if you do it right, you would have more fun in this life than you would know what the hell to do with. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori - What you call "settling" I call "practice". I have been lucky enough to have several lovers in my life so far, my husband is my one true love, but I wouldn't trade any of my other experiences for the world. Even the not-so-good ones contained lessons I was able to learn before I was in a marriage. And my husband and I lived together for a good 2 years before finalizing our marriage, and as I have mentioned before, God wasn't invited to our wedding. And the sex still keeps getting better! LOL, God doesn't need to be in my heart for good sex. I just need an open mind, a little music maybe... If I were to take another lover tomorrow, nope, the sex wouldn't be as good as it is with my hubby, I'm sure of it. But that's because sex is like anything else, it takes practice to learn how to do it well. Like a dance, once you learn your partner's responses, your own become more fine-tuned. Practice, practice, practice. It's a hard job, but, hey, someone's got to do it! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Tab, What is it that you're about to eat? Oh yea, that would be crow. Sky, You're being obtuse. I know very well that there is a "learning curve". Takes time to train those beasts, eh? But you can practice with your husband. You don't have to practice by engaging in fornication or adultery, you can practice within a marriage based upon love, trust, and committment. Right? Just let me hear you say it once. I'm right, arent' I? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, quote: -and I do know the difference it makes, and so does everyone else on this board, except maybe Tab, who seems to be evil incarnate, and can be used as an excellent example of why it is we all seek the truth. Because we sure as hell don't want to end up that ****ed up, eh? - I'm sorry did I miss something? I have promoted nothing but love in my posts. 'Evil incarnate'? 'Tab(sic) is the reason you all seek the truth'? 'that *****d up eh'? Please explain what you mean, I'm utterly fascinated by your distorted perception of me. If I was a rock star I would have been flattered, but as I'm not and as I'm usually treated with the upmost love and respect for my understated good deeds and moral intergrity by those that know me, I really don't get it. By the way what's 'crow'? is it something you eat in the USA?
Lori - *I* am being obtuse? Are you sure you know the definition of that word? Nevermind, I don't care. Lori, I always 'fess up when I agree with you, it has happened before, but you seem to have forgotten about that. I just happen to disagree with you here. As far as practicing with my husband, sure I COULD, but do I want to?? Before I was married I couldn't practice with a husband, because I didn't have one at the time. Now who's being obtuse? Sure I don't HAVE to participate in fornication or adultery, but you know what? I LIKE fornication! I LIKE adultery! I don't call it that, of course, because those words don't really have a lot of meaning to me, but essentially, YOWZA, bring it on, babe! Perhaps you see me as immoral. Fine! I frankly don't care what you or anyone else thinks of my sex life. Know why? Because it's MY sex life and it's only of concern to me and those (lucky, lucky men) I'm having sex with. So, Lori, unless you want to sleep with me, I'm inclined to say...now how does that saying go? Oh yeah, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! Which has been my main theme throughout this thread, if you recall. And who says a marriage based on love, trust, and commitment must be monogamous? Perhaps for you, perhaps even for the majority of the people this is true. But historically and even in present day there are many, many people living quite happily in non-monogamous relationships and marriages. MY marriage IS based on love, trust, and commitment, not on sex. Sex is great, and certainally adds spice to a marriage, but that's not what marriage is all about. Can't you see that? Perhaps that isn't how YOUR marriage is/was/would be, but that's how mine works. And if that's what works for hubby & I, who is to say that's wrong? YOU? Why should we care what you think?? Mom? Is that you??
Tab'- No, no, you see, you're evil because you don't believe in Lori's God. You might have the capacity to enjoy sex outside of a marriage, which is OBVIOUSLY a trait of none other than, GASP!, SSAAAAAATTTTTAAAAANNNNN!!!! Sheesh, for someone who claims to have "been there, done that", our friend Lori is awfully intolerant of anybody that doesn't share her view, doncha think? Yah, Lori, I've been nice to you all along, and stood up for you when I thought you were being picked on. But you have such an abrasive personality and an inability to see past the end of your own nose that I'm tired of being nice to you.
