Oh really? You guys are taking this pretty hard aren't you? Why do you assume that I am judging you? Why do you tell me to mind my own business when I thought that the whole point of this discussion was to share differring viewpoints? I'm just trying to explain to you how I view the implications of my faith from a sexual standpoint. I think you may be getting frustrated trying to prove your point, as you basically just gave up in your last post by saying the typical, "well, it doesn't have to make sense, and it doesn't have to be the right thing to do, it's just what I want to do, so mind your own business". And I certainly would, mind you, if you were not posting your business on an open forum. Tab, I'm sorry, I was just exaggerating ok? You do seem a little off-kilter to me though. The whole thing about the hard-care porno and bruising and such really made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. What I meant to say, if I would have worded it better, is that you seem to have a vehement animosity towards Jesus and His Word. That's what I meant. Are you being abducted by aliens? Being visited by being's o' light? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori - Where did I ever say "it doesn't have to be the right thing"? For me, it IS the right thing, and that's my whole point! You know, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop twisting my words around. Perhaps that's an accident and you don't realize it, but that's what you're doing here, and I'm not your only victim. Okay, maybe I did jump on you a little too hard, you're right, this is a public forum. But that sure felt like a personal attack to me, perhaps I have overreacted. I say perhaps because I'm still not convinced that you're just trying to 'get my goat'. This forum is designed for us to debate our views, not for you or anyone else to go off on people that don't happen to share your world view. Just because someone doesn't share your perceptions doesn't give you the right to badger and ridicule them. And, you know what, your opinon is JUST an opinion. Your fun little quip; "Right? Just let me hear you say it once. I'm right, arent' I? " just ticked me off. You do realize there is a way to state your opinion without being a total 'female dog' about it, don't you? Ever hear the phrase "you'll catch more bees with honey than you will with vinegar?" I am open to debate, I ENJOY a debate, but I will not accept some chick with that kind of an attitude telling me how it is. I have offered nothing but courtesy to you up until that last post, but you can't seem to handle the fact that there are people out there that don't share your views and/or lifestyle, but somehow manage to be happy healthy people anyway. This is a forum for debate, not for you to give me crap with all your "you are so obtuse", "you couldn't be more wrong", and "get that?" type comments. You know, Lori, I think I object to your tone more than I object to anything you're saying. Has life been so bitter that you can't stand to be polite to those that hold opinions other than your own?? I bet you a hundred bucks that if you softened your tone just a little bit, you'd get a lot more agreement from just about everyone on this board. Let me list a few sayings that I am particularly fond of. Some of these I'm sure you'll recognize, and I think at least a couple of these relate well to what I'm trying to express here: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "It is far better to have people think you are a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it." And, one of my all time favorites: "There, but for the grace of God, goes I" Now, what do you say we back off of eachother a bit, eh? You say you've "been there, done that", where is your perspective? I mean, c'mon now, surely you know you can be wrong? If you were wrong before, why not entertain the theory that you could be wrong again? You're only human, right?? I admit I can be wrong, in fact, I did right in this very post. If I can be gracious, can't you return the favor?? In return, I'll continue to be nice to you. I probably should have cushioned my wording a little better in my last post, it is not my intention to turn this into a "b!tch fight". I probably wouldn't have been able to continue being mean anyway, it's just not part of my nature. So, what do you say Lori? Truce?? [This message has been edited by SkyeBlue (edited December 15, 1999).]
What the hell did I even say? That you were being obtuse, as in the opposite of acute, as in not making a clear point. Hey, at least I didn't call you a bitch right? Yea, it could have been worse. Maybe like the response I got from you. You know, I was just trying to egg you on, you know, sarcastically? You guys may not believe this, but the people I know outside of cyber-world actually think I'm extremely funny. And you all misinterpret me all the time. Do you know why? I'll tell you why. I had to reconcile it in my head after I got my ass chewed out for the 100th or so time over the Inquisition, or shoving my religion down someone's throat, or the sins of every church goer that ever lived, or cussing, or whatever the dig of the day happened to be. It's because I'm a Christian. And what screws everybody up is that I don't fit the mold. Remember why you have a certain amount of animosity towards Christianity? Because of the sins of the church throughout history, the judgementalism, hypocracy, oppression, even violence. Because some "church people", some Christians, think that they are holier than thou, better than you, and perfect themselves, and rationalize sin even while preaching. They're all fluffy, you know, with their "God bless you's", and oh no, they would never cuss! I'M NOT THAT PERSON!!!! Everyone else out here gets to go off and say anything they want, and believe me, I haved laughed my ass off at some of the sarcasm that I've read on this board. You people make assumptions about me that are unfounded because you keep trying to stuff me into your pre-formed mold of a Christian (want to talk about racism, Tab?). So then when I don't talk like one, you think I'm going off. I'm not going off, ok? Please don't make me talk fluffy. I'm begging you, I'm just not a fluff chick. Never wanted to be and never will. People take their animosity towards other Christians out on me and it frustrates me, because I'm a nice person, and I don't deserve to be judged by anyone other than God. I don't judge others; I can't. And don't ever mistake what I'm doing out here as judgement. It's a debate; an arguement. We're doing this on purpose remember? Arguing this stuff out here with you helps me to learn myself, and helps me to grow in my faith, and I enjoy it. So instead of picturing me like the "church lady", with a scowl on my face, and my nose up in the air, why don't you picture me with a smile? I do smile, ya know? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! See? Why can't we get married before we start practicing? Listen, I'm not being obtuse ok? (See, admit it, that was a little funny) I know why it's not EASY to wait to get married. Did you get the impression that I did wait? Now THAT'S funny! You think I'm being judgemental of you huh? Well, would you like to know how many men I've slept with in my 32 years? Sorry, I have no flippin' idea. LOL! If I HAD to guess, I would guess 80, give or take a few. Would you like me to name them? LMAO! Sorry, but I didn't quite catch them all. It was awfully noisy in those bars, ya know. AND consider that I was off the market for maybe 10-11 years in monogamous relationships. Anyway, it's hard to do because we make it hard on ourselves. Society has not fostered an environment that makes it easy to make that kind of committment at all, much less at an early age. But what I'm saying is that God DID NOT want it to be this way. It shouldn't be so hard. And since it IS so hard, and the reason being that no one even cares about or acknowledges God anymore, and WE are the ones who foster this insane society of greed, then WE are the ones who should have to go without sex because we're so damn stupid! And guess what would happen if we did? We would actually make the changes necessary within society to make sure that as soon as we hit puberty, we could get married, screw like bunnies, and have a bunch of kids, and it wouldn't be considered a BAD thing. Is this making any sense at all? What I'm saying is that we shouldn't have to screw around with our screwing around like we do. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sky, you don't like fornication and adultery, you like sex. Just like I do, and just like everyone else does. I would honestly consider myself border line nympho ok? The older I get, I swear....anyway...You are just denying that there exists such a thing as fornication and adultery, because you deny God. And listen, I hope that I've made this clear, but I think that you're probably just as "moral", whatever that means, as I am, or the next guy, or the next. I'm not judging you. I do think that sex should have everything to do with love, trust, and committment, just like Jesus said. I think that it's supposed to be more than just an exercise, or entertainment. I don't think that it's supposed to be about self-gratification. I don't even get busy with myself anymore. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And you think THAT'S been easy since I've been separated? NOT! But it sure does help when I pray, and it helps to know that I'm doing the right thing. Listen, if things don't work out with the hubby, and he decides to end our marriage, do you know what I'm going to be? What's referred to as a "born-again virgin". That makes me laugh and cry at the same time. Well, I can honestly say that I've had enough sex for about 10 women's lifetimes, and it sure did leave me feeling empty, like it definately should mean something more than it did. I justified it just like everyone. Hey, it wasn't like I was hurting anyone, right? That's for sure...best BJ this side of the Mississippi (I have a certificate and everything)j/k. Best way to kill a lonely night, that's for sure. And I played it to the hilt. I acted just like a guy when it came to sex. My prerequisites were good hair and a nice ass. Pouty lips never hurt. Then again, my prerequisites were very flexible depending upon my mood, or my available selection at any particular time. Here's some wierd thing that I had to think about. That Elvis dude that I had the fling with...the night I met him, I was in some neighborhood bar with two girlfriends. The kind of place where the picken's were real slim, and he stood out like a beacon signaling to me as soon as I hit the door. I sat down in a booth behind him so I could check out his ass, and be close enough to have an excuse to stand next to him to get a drink. So after he does a total 180 and checks me out a couple of times, I went up to the bar and stood right next to him to get a drink. He introduced himself, his friend, told me he loved my hair, played with it a little, and asked me if I wanted to play the bowling arcade game. I said yes, of course, and within about five minutes....my friend looks across the bar, and says to my other friend, "who is that slut over there making out with that guy?" "Oh my God, it's Lori." So anyway, after trying to pry him off of me for about an hour or so, just because he wasn't so modest, ya know, we had to leave. I knew right then and there that this guy was not interested in my phone number, he couldn't have cared less about a relationship, the thought probably abhored him. He was a college guy who's main priorities were drinking beer and getting laid. And I wasn't gonna pass that up cause honey, he was fine. So, I tell my friends that I'm going to be leaving, and where I'm going, and they looked at me all shocked and one of them said, "well damn Lori, don't you at least want to go out to dinner with the guy first?" Why the hell did my friend say that? I didn't want to eat with this guy ok? I mean, it's not like I wouldn't WANT to eat with him ever, but isn't that totally irrelevant to the sex? That kind of shit out of people warps my head. But really, you have to draw the line somewhere, and that's what we're talking about. You say the line doesn't exist. Some say the line is crossed if someone gets hurt. Some say it's the size of their checkbook. Some say 2 dates, 3 dates, 4 dates, it depends on how many drinks maybe? I say that the line is marriage, and that it is for a reason. Ok, my fingers are tired. God bless you! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, Lori, do I have to remind you AGAIN of how you've judged me on this board? Quite inaccurate in your judgments, I might add. For one thing, you immediately judged me to be a "dude", along with various unflattering adjectives that do not fit me at all (if memory serves me correctly, "loopy" and "homophobic" were among them). And, by the way, I don't know how many times I need to tell you I'm a woman - W-O-M-A-N! You do judge people, Lori - quite often, as a matter of fact. You've done it to Tab, earlier in this thread, if I'm not mistaken. It's extremely annoying and hardly the kind of behavior I would expect from a "nice person", in case that never occured to you. Why are you surprised at the inevitable backlash? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Hello Everyone, To reiterate ONE thing that Searcher said (I hope you don't mind, Searcher): O.K., now... Searcher, Lori, SkyeBlue, Tab', truestory, et al.... Let's ALL say that a hundred times before we post anything else from now on. Love, Mom Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! PS - About the "Mom" thing... I'm poking fun at myself, not at you! [ [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]
Mom - Lori started it!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Well thanks guys, I see that you missed my entire point again. It took me a long time to post all that, and apparently it was futile. Great. I'll keep that in mind the next time I have some spare time. Here's a clue, when I say judging, I didn't mean that I didn't ever make mistakes, or get the wrong impression about something someone says. What I'm saying is that while I try not to do that, I'm not passing judgment. I could try to describe you or tell you the impression that I get from what you say, but whatever impression I may come up with, all I'm saying is that I'M NOT ANY BETTER THAN YOU ARE. And if one person dares to hop on here, and argue that I say I'm better than others all the time, then it's war! I have to defend that shit all the time, and why? Because I'm a Christian, that's why. But it damn well sure isn't because I ever have said that. And yes, why don't you go looking through every string I've ever written. Good luck, you won't find it. Why? Because I don't think it, so why should I say it? So you guys are just fine with making all kinds of assumptions about me because I'm a Christian, but God help me if I was to do the same thing to you. I mean, if someone hops on here and spews a bunch of stuff that seems homophobic, then I would say "gee, you seem homophobic", but I sure as hell wouldn't say, "I'm better than you are because you're homophobic." Do you see what I'm saying? I try not to read too much into what people say and make generalizations, but geez, if I do then it's certainly not because I think I know everything. I couldn't be more honest with you people. I've damn near spilled my guts on this forum so let me ask you, how, how in the flippin' world could you possibly read some of the stuff I've written about myself and think that I think I'm better than anyone? Now just stop it ok? Because I'm no better, and because of that I'm in no position to judge. OBVIOUSLY. And OF COURSE, that's exactly what it says in the Bible. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 16, 1999).]
Good Morning, Lori, It probably won't mean much, coming from me, however, I want to say that I DO understand where you are coming from.
Well thank God someone does. Listen I know that I have a sharp tongue. Believe me, I pay for it all the time. But I'm not mean-spirited, and I don't think that I have a sharper tongue than a lot of other people out here, I just have to take a lot more shit about it than anyone else does because I'm a Christian. So I said someone was obtuse. I get my ass chewed. I can only come to one of two conclusions: 1 - there is some real thin skin out here, or 2 - I am held to standards that are different from others out here because I'm a Christian. I think that it's the latter. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, SkyeBlue and Searcher answered for me as well in the main part in their last posts. But I have to iform you that I'm not a racist as you seem to imply, anything but in fact. And I know that you're referring to a previous post where I used the 'n' word. That word was used within a certain context simply for dynamic effect and if anything the phrase is obviously ironical in its intent, not racist. You need to talk about your childhood because it strikes me that you were deprived of love or even abused and you carry so much guilt on your shoulders that you see your own dark side in everybody else's postings. "take the log out of your own eye..etc etc" Another thing Lori, I would have you know that I have been very happily married in a monogamous relationship for 27 years and have never ever tasted the flesh of another person apart from my wife, whom I love very dearly. To me,your preoccupation with alien abductions and devious beings of light is bordering on the ridiculous and yet you perceive wrongly (again) that I'm also into that s**t. I would never dismiss anything out of hand but I'm certainly not entirely convinced by any of the et/alien/conspiracy/abduction stories. You on the other hand, are entirely lost in a fantasy, from alien conspiracies to ancient gods of mythology to a Christian god who is proud of your swearing. You are desperately throwing anchors and trying to steady your volatile urges.Your insatiable desire to be loved and your feisty personality drove you into a dark place but your spirit was awakened and searched for the light, you now think you've found it. I think you've only taken the first step, now before continuing, walk around in a small circle first, then sit down and think about what you've learnt. And you know, find out which guard is telling the truth before proceeding through the gate. Lastly and most importantly, learn to read other peoples posts slowly and carefully and then think about what they're saying with an open mind. We are all learners and we are all teachers. Do not believe anybody who tells you otherwise. I love you Lori
Well, I love you too Tab, but I haven't been abused, I haven't been denied love any more than anyone else has, and I'm not in a fantasy world. That's my whole point. You don't have to agree with me about my beliefs about anything, but just because you don't, doesn't mean I'm delusional. Lighten up already. What do you want me to say exactly? Why don't you tell me what to say, and then I'll say it, but then what would you do? I'm sorry, but some things that you have said have totally given me the creeps. That's all I'm saying. Do you really think that I REALLY believe that you're evil incarnate????? That you're Satan????? Give me a break already, I was just kidding. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, There is a third you left out. Could your past actions have caused this? When some one makes a mistake, be it accidently use of to harsh of words or somthing eles it is one thing. When you acknowlege these mistakes but continue to repeat them the only thing any one can deduce is that you are intentional doing thses things and they are not mistakes. I know from my point of view when I see some one acknowlege but continue to repeat "mistakes" it is much harder for me to forgive then if they had made vaild atempts at corective action. ------------------ My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it. [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 16, 1999).]
666, I hope you don't mind my asking... Do you see this to be SIMILAR TO a situation where the parent who beats their child, sees the child lying battered and bloodied on the floor, the child crying out in pain, perhaps, and the parent saying, "I didn't mean to hurt you, but, you KNOW how I am!!! It doesn't mean I don't love you! If you didn't WANT me to hit you, then why did you DO those things when you KNEW how I would react?! Why do you DO those things?! To MAKE me hit you???!!! "MY" father hit me A LOT harder than I've ever hit you!!! So??? What??? Are you a "wimp" or something? I know I go off on you sometimes and YOU KNOW IT TOO... that's JUST THE WAY I AM and YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ME!!! Soooooooo, if you don't want me to do it anymore, then don't MAKE me do it anymore!" ???????????????????????????? [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]
Ok, just so I have this straight....I called someone obtuse, which is not a cuss word, like bitch for example, and I was trying to nicely say that she was talking in circles, and now I'm being compared to a child abuser. What planet am I on? See, I didn't think that there was anything wrong with me saying that she was being obtuse. I'm not being mean, I'm not judging. You guys are worrying me quite a bit. You're so far off base, I can't even believe it you know? Can we just talk about sex already? I mean I spent a while putting down those thoughts, and my intentions were to discuss sex, not my vurnacular AGAIN. And TS, you know we all have things that we need to work on in life. Tab seems to think that my God is proud of cussing. It's ridiculous stuff like this that makes me just want to give up. But I don't. I've tried very very hard to change my tone. Not that it matters to anyone apparently. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, I agree! I'd much rather talk about sex!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Also, I HAVE noticed how very much your "tone" has improved, in my humble opinion, and I, for one, appreciate it! You are making a greaaat effort and, let's face it, you didn't have to do that... there is noone who forced you to try to "improve" - You made a conscious effort to grow as a person and that's GREAT! "Change" for the better is always a wonderful thing. Thank you very much! Sorry, if it seems like it to you... YOU are not being compared to a child abuser. The similarity in the response to peoples objections in the form of rationalization is what I was talking with 666 about. What happens, and I've seen it many times, is that people try to rationalize their behavior which hurts other people in similar ways. People who have been abused at any age (either physically or emotionally), especially, CAN BE very sensitive to "name-calling" and "put-downs" even if the "intent" was to poke a little fun and even if the poster really has a big, friendly smile on their face which noone on the receiving end can see. Name-calling and put-downs CAN BE very painful for someone who has experienced abuse and, when they object (even if it was done in "fun") and the name-caller rationalizes rather than respects their objection, they pick up on such rationalizations and very easily identify it with past experiences because they have heard it so many times before during their lifetime. Given what 666 has so openly shared with us about his childhood (thank you) and given what he talked about in his post above, I was simply ASKING him if that is what HE saw, a similarity in the "rationalization" of the behavior. I TRULY hope this helps. [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 17, 1999).]
Lori' your quote: -. Because some "church people", some Christians, think that they are holier than thou, better than you, and perfect themselves, and rationalize sin even while preaching. They're all fluffy, you know, with their "God bless you's", and oh no, they would never cuss! I'M NOT THAT PERSON!!!!- Your god must have heard you cuss a thousand times, he must be real proud of you. Otherwise, why do it? It's because you are so proud of yourself aren't you? Your intelligence, your sense of humour, your sexuality, your experiences. No, you could never be fluffy it wouldn't suit the queen b***h image you naturally project and cultivate.
TS, Thank you for explaining that, and I do understand what you mean, and I agree, and I do the same thing too regarding some things. I appreciate your kind words. Tab, The nicest way I can say this is that you are truly amazing. Amazingly what is where I'll just put a lid on it. Thanks though for demonstrating what I meant when I jokingly called you evil incarnate. Hey, it's either evil or stupidity. You tell me? Have a nice day. Everyone, Now I'd really like to hear someone try to answer the question I posed in my last long post. Why did my girlfriend seem so appalled that I would have sex with a guy that I knew for maybe an hour or so, but thought that if I had dinner with him once or twice, that it would somehow be ok to have sex with him then? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 17, 1999).]
Truestory, No I don't mind. Yes there is a similarity in how I precive this. Just underlying factors. Lori, I just thought that it might be an addtional cause. Sometimes people can't see that other people have changed. I could go more, but I am going to answer your question. Quite simply I don't understand why your girlfriend couldn't understand it. I realy don't see the diference between the two situations. In both cases You wouldn't realy know who the person is. I belive that if you don't know the person well enough do not have sex with them. I have a great story of a friend who would only sleep with over weight women becuase he belived they would be easier to get into bed. Well one morning he woke up with a women stradling him with a ball-peen hammer in one hand and told him how nice it was of him to trust her so much and sleep so deeply. Moral of the story... He got what he deserved, no she didn't hit him just scared the hell out of him and don't just sleep around or you might end up stairing down a ball-peen hammer! ------------------ My life could have been black and white, but I had to color it. [This message has been edited by 666 (edited December 18, 1999).]
666, Oh my! That reminded me of that book "Looking for Mr Goodbar". Actually I'm surprised at how I beat out the statistical probability of ending up in pieces on a riverbank myself. At this point, I can't help but think it was Grandma praying for me. I agree with your position. That's why this stuff warps my head so bad, or it did anyway. But in reality, that's the way A LOT of people act. Where's the line? One dinner, two dinners, three dinners, four? It's like a riddle....how many dinners does it take before you can sleep with someone guilt-free? Or something like that. It may be a nice gift? A common interest found? You may feel sorry for the guy? Maybe you're feeling a little extra-lonely? Maybe you've had a few drinks? Maybe he's got a big wallet? Or maybe you married the guy? Whoa, what? Married? When I looked at how people move that line all over the place at a whim, I decided that there either is no God, and no line, or there is a God, and the line is where He draws it. I think it's obvious that I concluded that there is a God, and the line is where He draws it. You know, (well you wouldn't but) that guy was just awful in bed. Poor thing just sucked big time. I was disappointed yes, but I realized that to one degree or another, I would have been disappointed regardless. Even though he sucked, I went back several times for more. I guess I thought I'd give it another shot, since he was sooooooo cute. But here's the honesty part....I wasn't really with him for good sex. I was really with him because I wanted to be close to a man. I was lonely, and I just wanted the attention, and the intimacy, even though I knew that the situation was the exact opposite of that. He considered me to be a walking talking blow up doll see. As many men do. There was no intimacy, no feelings, no love, no trust, and THAT'S what I really wanted. So guess what I did? I settled for the next best thing and ended up feeling empty and more alone than before. I see God all over the place! Praise Jesus! So now I'm confused. Before you said that a little lustful sex is a good thing, but now you say you shouldn't sleep around. So where is your line, and how did you decide where to draw it? TS, Amen sista! ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 18, 1999).]
