Long Term Antibodies-Covid-19?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by KUMAR5, Feb 15, 2022.

  1. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Right I shall sing without reading it. But only when someone will ask me to sing. Similarly when new same antigens will be exposed{ask memory sells in this analogy) to memory cells then only they will be quickly stimulated to secrate new relevant antibodies(sing a memorized song in analog) not without antigenic exposure. Simple difference in primary antibody immune response and secondary immune response by B cells and Memory B cell is just time. In primary immune response and on vaccination it take about 10-15 days to secrate IgG antibodies by on secondary immune response these IgG antibodies are secreted quickly. It resist infection to spread whereas in former case it is spread in that 10-15 days.
    I do not understand what is making you not to grasp this basic understanding that Imm. memory is meant to save us for reinfection by quickly responding to antigen/virus.
     
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  3. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes nut still above suggest memory cells are meant for stronger and quick antibody immune response on re-exposure of same antigen/virus in sense re-infection to these memory cells. Without re-exposure memory cells can not be stimulated. Although there can be many possibility of re-exposure of these antigens. Few can be by re-infection of same virus, by virus or its antigenic part accumulate in body, by virus become latent/dormat, probably by vaccination or otherwise. But anyway re-antigenic exposure to memory cells is a basic condition.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    So, there is the part in the textbook explaining that some plasma cells "survive in the bone marrow for months or years and continue to secrete antibodies into the blood".

    And then there is the last sentence of the CEJI citation: "In these secondary lymphoid organs, once B and T cells have migrated, together with DC, the presentation of an antigen takes place."

    I haven't yet read enough of Sun et al. (2011)↱ on immunological memory of NK cells, but one point is that "previously primed NK cells can mediate secondary memory responses". As it was, I couldn't let that line from Ratajczak pass without further inquiry.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Alberts, Bruce, et al. "B Cells and Antibodies". Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th ed. 2002. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 23 February 2022. https://bit.ly/354tUOR

    Ratajczak, Weronika, Paulina Niedźwiedzka-Rystwej, Beata Tokarz-Deptuła, and Wiesław Deptuła. "Immunological memory cells". Central European Journal of Immunology, 43(2). 2018. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 23 February 2022. https://bit.ly/3sbCZP9

    Sun, Joseph C., et al. "NK cells and immune 'memory'". The Journal of Immunology, 186(4). 2011. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 23 February 2022. https://bit.ly/33MatKu
     
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  7. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks. However I am afraid, it still does not suggest that antibodies on secondary immune response can be secreted without presentation of same antigen to memory celks. In view of existance of long term antibodies in Covud or by its vaccination, we may need to know the source or secondary but similar antigens.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    OK great! So you don't need to hear it again to be able to sing it.

    Your immune system doesn't need to "hear the song again" to keep making antibodies.

    Get it now?
     
  9. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Then ehy is will sing song unnecessary even without provocation forit¿
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Well, at this point you're just running around in cricles. You've been given every answer you need, and seem to be floundering on your own erroneous presuppositions. If you go back and read posts #5-9↑, you'll see we're still circling around what Exchemist↑ calls "nonsense", and Billvon↑ refers to as "making shit up".

    So, consider, please: There is a question you're asking, but the rest of us apparently have to figure out what it is. Or, there is a question you're asking in hope of finding a particular answer, and will keep asking until someone gives it, regardless of whether or not it is true.

    Think of it this way, Kumar: You're disputing with evolution. #5, for instance, "what is the need of keeping long term antibodies for say 6 to 12 months post infection"; the answer is that organisms in our lineage fared better over time with immunological memory, and that is the trait that survives. Or #7, "if new antibodies keep on secreting yill 6 months to 12 monts, it can also be suggestive of that some traces of virus still exist in body in some dormant or accumulated state for say 6 months to 12 months"; that's not how it works. Plasma cells in bone marrow, for instance, continue making antibodies because that is what they do; it is what they exist for, and any given plasma cell will follow its programming¹ because that is what it does.

    So to answer #10↑ for instance, yes, new antibodies; and per your follow-up circling 'round at #12↑, plasma cells in bone marrow are the example showing the process does not require a particular trigger. Which brings us to #14↑, and the answer is that such cells will still be producing antibody because that is what they do. And it's the same answer you get for your reiteration at #16↑. A plasma cell in bone marrow is not going to suddenly hibernate until it receives new instructions; once programmed to its function, it will perform that function until it dies. Yet, you just keep pushing the same question, over and over. #18↑? Same answer: If you ask, "which antigen can be there to stimulate long term antibody production even by these cells after virus infection is cured", the answer is the original one; that is, the one that caused the plasma cell to activate in the first place.² As Billvon↑ explained, "you need an antigen to START antibody production. You do not need an antigen to CONTINUE antibody production." Still, you just asked again in #20↑; "how this long rerm antibody can exist without reinfection or antigen presentation", and though you were answered, you simply insisted and asked again in #22↑, "how these long lived cells go on producing antibodies without antigens". And, again, the answer is the same as it ever was, that once those cells start, they don't stop until they die.

    Second infection, unlike the first time through, might encounter existing antibody disrupting infection, and NK cells will already know what to do if they re-encounter a known antigen. Moreover, once dendritic cells present antigen at lymphoid organs, it is a quicker process to activate plasma cells and program lymphocyte affinities, because the immune system already knows this particlar antigen. This is why the secondary immune response is quicker and stronger than the primary encounter and response.

    Meanwhile, per #23↑, no, that's not how it works. The discussion about chronic illness considered the longer-term effects of immediate damage, such as pancreatic disruption resulting in the emergence of diabetes, or kidney disease related to blood clotting problems associated with Covid.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ¹ It's in the textbook; see #29↑ above.

    ² Again, see #29 for the textbook excerpt.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, couldn't decipher that.

    If you put as much effort into communicating as you put into purposely misunderstanding science, you might be able to learn a lot more - or at least converse intelligently.
     
  12. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, I could not make you understsnd my point of view. So just leave it.
     
  13. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks a lot fot taking so much pain in explaining me in much detail. It is clear to me. Simply this has surprised me:-
    ", that once those cells start, they don't stop until they die." and same without a trigger. Anyway okay. Thanks again.
     
  14. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    "Types of white blood cells fight infection in different ways:

    • Macrophages are white blood cells that swallow up and digest germs and dead or dying cells. The macrophages leave behind parts of the invading germs, called “antigens”. The body identifies antigens as dangerous and stimulates antibodies to attack them.
    • B-lymphocytes are defensive white blood cells. They produce antibodies that attack the pieces of the virus left behind by the macrophages.
    • T-lymphocytes are another type of defensive white blood cell. They attack cells in the body that have already been infected.
    The first time a person is infected with the virus that causes COVID-19, it can take several days or weeks for their body to make and use all the germ-fighting tools needed to get over the infection. After the infection, the person’s immune system remembers what it learned about how to protect the body against that disease.

    The body keeps a few T-lymphocytes, called “memory cells,” that go into action quickly if the body encounters the same virus again. When the familiar antigens are detected, B-lymphocytes produce antibodies to attack them."
    Also about how vaccine works...
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...BioNTech or,genetic material from the vaccine.
     
  15. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    "In immunology, a memory B cell (MBC) is a type of B lymphocyte that forms part of the adaptive immune system. These cells develop within germinal centers of the secondary lymphoid organs. Memory B cells circulate in the blood stream in a quiescent state, sometimes for decades.[1] Their function is to memorize the characteristics of the antigen that activated their parent B cell during initial infection such that if the memory B cell later encounters the same antigen, it triggers an accelerated and robust secondary immune response.[2][3] Memory B cells have B cell receptors (BCRs) on their cell membrane, identical to the one on their parent cell, that allow them to recognize antigen and mount a specific antibody response.[4]"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memor...mory B,quiescent state, sometimes for decades.

    Sorry but ,whether above quote about Memory B Celks suggest anywhere rhat long term antibodies can be produced and secreted without exposure of same antigen again to these cells?
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Still finding ways to intentionally misunderstand? You go!
     
  17. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I a, moving in circle because I am not yet convinced with the replies. My unsatisfaction is also supported by information given on many sites. Yes memory cells are created due to primary exposure of antigens either by infection or by vaccination but these are activated only after secondary exposure of same antigen and I simply want to know which is this secondary antigen?
     
  18. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I jave asked a question in my Covid test thread that ehethet negative rapid antigen and RT PCR tests suggest either low level of sntigen and virus exoisure to us or nil levels of these? It is meant to know if it is low level then can it mean that there is a consistent low exposure of these which may be stimulating consistent secretion of long term antibodies? If nil level then probably antibodies may fade away soon in just their one lifespan....somewhat 30 to 45 days.

    Sorry, I could not find any reference or justification of that memory B cells consistently produce long term antibodies for say 6 months to 12 months? Yes these can produce antibodies for long term but shall need re exoisure of sane or somilar antigen or virus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
  19. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I did not got sny reply about my question about Covid tests. Snywwy, I received this reply from a big lab:
    "The antigen tests both Rapid and RT PCR, a negative result means the lack or low level of COVID related antigens"

    Hence this justufy my doubt that some antigen of covid related virus remain present in body which may be a reason to appearance of long term antibodies to it.

     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    yes
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    question is
    does anti bodys cause long covid

    thats the real scientific debate

    understanding how long covid is caused so it can be prevented will be critical long term

    long covid will only increase as covid continues to become a global popular flu
    omicron is away now
    so its a question of what why where how



    imagine how many dead if we had no vaccine

    wow !
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's not the question.

    I mean, sure, it's A question. But it's like asking if lima beans cause long COVID. I mean, there's a chance, of course. But since there's no known causative mechanism there - probably not.
     
  23. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    All abnormalities in body may need
    deep evaluation for their probable or possible pathological impacts. Immunological memory post antigen exoisure is only normal acquisition for long term protection.
     

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