Luminiferous Aether Exists!

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Mazulu, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152

    He lacks the tools of a science education, so he's clawing his way through this. He's misunderstanding what he's finding, which is why he keeps asking "do you understand -" (then the fact he's got twisted). He seems to be disinterested in researching his own questions, to get the background and details that fill in the gaps in his understanding, and/or he's overwhelmed by science and can't grapple with the abstractions and theorems of math. On top of that, he's slinging adversarial assertions, thinking, in his mind, that scientists are guilty until proven innocent. If he's deliberately trolling, then he'll eventually crash and burn. Otherwise, for him to overcome his handicaps, he'll have to have a breakthrough, see his errors, and be able to back out of his mounting denial. It's a tall order, but not beyond the realm of possibility.
     
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  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing at all. Just your fantasy.

    specifically, cosmic particles, the same as those which are bombarding you at this very moment.

    we were discussing the detectors on Voyager which are in deep space.

    in particular your cite is referring to high energy cosmic rays

    yes, fields "pile up" wherever moving charges are present

    How much is enough? Got any clue?

    Rule #1: avoid analogies where possible.

    So?

    And what happens to the particle when you do that?

    With what? What is on board the Voyager? (Be specific)

    By the rule of law: F = qV × B.

    ...disobey the above law, you mean.

    Restate that such that the law is upheld.

    No, it's simply a matter of settled law.

    Only in sci-fi and comic books.

    Aether doesn't exist. Cosmic rays do. Big difference.

    Here your train jumped the track. Go find out what detectors Voyager has on board and let's go back to what NASA actually said, and your misunderstandings will be revealed to you. (Though easier with a basic physics course behind you.)
     
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  5. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    You said the article said it was cosmic radiation which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system. You are able to understand the word 'radiation' is never used in the article, correct? You do understand the article says "Voyager is showing that what is outside is pushing back". You are able to understand what is outside is interstellar space, correct? You are able to understand interstellar space is occupied by the interstellar medium, correct? Incase you actually want to read the article I will again provide the link.

    NASA's Voyager Hits New Region at Solar System Edge

    It is the interstellar medium which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the Solar System.

    It is the interstellar medium which is displaced by the Solar System which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the Solar System.
     
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  7. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    No, not correct. Cosmic rays are radiation and they are particles.

    Sure. The stuff hitting its detectors. (Name the detectors and we're on the way out of this hole.)

    So? What do you think that means?

    Hah! Nice try, but no, absolutely not. Easily disproven.

    Right now, you go read it and tell me what NASA says is feeling pressure, and what NASA says is producing pressure.

    Sci-fi.

    Sci-fi squared.
     
  8. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    356
    You are saying the article says particles, which exist in quantities less than in any vacuum artifically created on earth, are somehow pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system causing the magnetic field to pile up.

    Where in the article does it say that? So far you have said the article says it is cosmic radiation which is causing the magnetic field to pile up when the article never even mentions the word 'radiation'.

    Now you are saying it is particles of matter which are causing the magnetic field to pile up.

    So, let me try and summarize your position. You are saying it is cosmic rays which are actually particles which the article says is causing the magnetic field to pile up. Quote from the article where this is stated.

    What exists in interstellar space is the interstellar medium. The interstellar medium causes the magnetic field to pile up because it is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system. The interstellar medium is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system because it is displaced by the solar system.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  9. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    3,914
    A quote from the article,
    At the same time, Voyager has detected a 100-fold increase in the intensity of high-energy electrons from elsewhere in the galaxy diffusing into our solar system from outside, which is another indication of the approaching boundary.

    "We've been using the flow of energetic charged particles at Voyager 1 as a kind of wind sock to estimate the solar wind velocity," said Rob Decker, a Voyager Low-Energy Charged Particle Instrument co-investigator at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md. "We've found that the wind speeds are low in this region and gust erratically. For the first time, the wind even blows back at us. We are evidently traveling in completely new territory. Scientists had suggested previously that there might be a stagnation layer, but we weren't sure it existed until now."

    The article is essentially saying that the Voyager has reached a boundary area between the solar system's magnetic envelope (the helosphere) and the magnetic field of the galaxy or the interstellar space beyond.

    The high energy electrons are a part of the cosmic radiation from outside the solar system's boundary.

    The Voyager's instruments are measuring high energy particles, mostly if not all protons and free electrons, moving out from the sun and in from interstellar space, as well as the strength and character of the magnetic field of the solar system.

    BTW High energy electrons are a part cosmic radiation.
     
  10. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    The article is not saying the increase in the high energy electrons is what is outside the solar system in interstellar space which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system. It is saying there is an increase in high energy electrons from interstellar space which are reaching Voyager which is another indication Voyager has reach a cosmic boundary between what can be considered to be inside and outside of our solar system.

    "During this past year, Voyager's magnetometer also detected a doubling in the intensity of the magnetic field in the stagnation region. Like cars piling up at a clogged freeway off-ramp, the increased intensity of the magnetic field shows that inward pressure from interstellar space is compacting it. Voyager has been measuring energetic particles that originate from inside and outside our solar system. Until mid-2010, the intensity of particles originating from inside our solar system had been holding steady. But during the past year, the intensity of these energetic particles has been declining, as though they are leaking out into interstellar space. The particles are now half as abundant as they were during the previous five years. At the same time, Voyager has detected a 100-fold increase in the intensity of high-energy electrons from elsewhere in the galaxy diffusing into our solar system from outside, which is another indication of the approaching boundary. "We've been using the flow of energetic charged particles at Voyager 1 as a kind of wind sock to estimate the solar wind velocity," said Rob Decker, a Voyager Low-Energy Charged Particle Instrument co-investigator at the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md. "We've found that the wind speeds are low in this region and gust erratically. For the first time, the wind even blows back at us. We are evidently traveling in completely new territory. Scientists had suggested previously that there might be a stagnation layer, but we weren't sure it existed until now.""

    That cosmic boundary is the state of displacement of the aether. The state of displacement of the aether pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system is strong enough to cause the weakended magnetic field to pile up. However, the displaced aether is not pushing back strongly enough to keep charged particles from leaking into interstellar space. The state of displacement of the aether as determined by its connections with the matter and the state of the aether in neighboring places is allowing high-energy electrons to enter the region where Voyager is now.

    There is no such thing as non-baryonic dark matter. Matter moves through and displaces the aether.

    The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the aether.

    Where Voyager is now is at the boundary of the Solar System's halo which is the state of displacement of the aether as determined by its connections with the matter the Solar System consists of and the state of the aether in neighboring places.

    Ether and the Theory of Relativity by Albert Einstein

    "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable"

    "the state of the [ether] is at every place determined by connections with the matter and the state of the ether in neighbouring places, ... disregarding the causes which condition its state."

    The state of the aether at every place determined by connections with the matter and the state of the aether in neighboring places is the state of displacement of the aether.

    Q. What ripples when galaxy clusters collide? What gets left behind when galaxy clusters collide? What causes there to be an offset between light lensing through the space neighboring galaxy clusters and the galaxy clusters themselves? What waves out ahead of our solar system? What is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system? What waves in a double slit experiment?

    A. The aether.
     
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Start with their literal words, and then, without gloss or opinion, go directly to what they mean. This will be complicated since you need a crash course in science to catch up.

    OnlyMe quoted your NASA cite, did he not? Everything OnlyMe said is exactly what I was trying to draw out of you. OnlyMe understands what NASA said because he speaks their language. You do not.

    Particles ejected from other stars arrive at the edge of the heliosphere and "blow" at it, "pressurizing" the field. This is strictly a well known law of electromagnetics (e.g. Lorentz law ) and has nothing to do with pressurizing matter, or aether, or anything else you're preaching.
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    And why is that? Because Voyager is getting so far from the sun that it's catching fewer solar particles and more interstellar particles (particles from other emitters, like other stars).

    In other words, it's close to a zone called the edge of the heliosphere. You will need to do some remedial work to catch up with us on this.

    Finally you mention one of the detectors. Aha. Voyager is measuring the magnetic field. This is like pulling teeth. And why has the field doubled? Because it has been "blown" on both sides ("pressurized") by two partice sources - the sun, and every other emitter out there.
    Very critical words, so don't twist them. What is it in that sentence? NASA assumes a little literacy in English. It is B the magnetic field, not space itself. You seem to want to force these to be the same. They're not. So this statement by NASA means just what OnlyMe said to you.
     
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    6,152
    Go back to where you demanded that I prove NASA said this, and look again at what NASA is saying, and look again at what you said, the what NASA said, then you/NASA/you/NASA/you/NASA... Yes, denial is like that.

    This is why NASA thinks they are reaching the edge of the heliosphere. Nothing more.

    Detected particles. Particles you denied. In Voyager's detector. Using the law F = qV x B. The law you still deny. Go figure.

    This is where you need to focus. Elsewhere doesn't mean aether. They are talking about particles ejected from our neighbors, such as the ones hitting Voyager head-on.

    The boundary is a scrunching-up of the magnetic field (B-field/heliosphere) due to being "blown" at by the cosmic wind (of particles streaming at us from other galactic objects).

    Got it? Winds of particle emission.

    NASA just said the opposite. You're just pretending that they're referring to aether.

    No, all of what NASA said refers to simple electromagnetics, nothing more. You're inventing this.
     
  14. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    The only pushing that is going on here is due to F = qV x B. It's 100% electromagnetic, 0% aether. That's why aether doesn't show up in the Lorentz formula. Get it?
    No, high energy electrons pass though the heliosphere because F = qV x B, nothing more.

    No, particles move through space, setting up fields, according to F = qV x B, nothing more.

    Get back to what NASA said. What's being displaced? Particles. From where? From all the objects in the Milky Way, and everywhere else in the universe, which eject particles during fusion. No aether in that either.

    Unlike you, Voyager is applying F = qV x B, nothing more. That's the principle behind the construction of its detectors even way back when it was conceived and built.

    And all of this, casual readers, is the consequence of twisting NASA's report on the progress of Voyager and turning it into sci-fi.
     
  15. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    You are able to understand there are particles in less numbers in interstellar space then in any vacuum artificially created on Earth, correct?

    That means there are too few of them to push back and exert inward pressure toward anything, let alone the magnetic field.

    It is the interstellar medium which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system which causes the magnetic field to pile up.

    The interstellar medium is able to push back and exert inward pressure toward the solar system because it is displaced by the matter the solar system consists of.
     
  16. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    The magnetic field piles up because what is outside in interstellar space is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system.

    For some reason you choose to believe in magic. You choose to believe particles of matter which exist in quantities less than in any vacuum artificially created on Earth are able push back and cause all of the magnetic field to pile up.

    The article specifically does not say it is particles of matter which are causing the magnetic field to pile up because there are so few of them it is obviously absurd nonsense to think such a thing.

    It is the interstellar medium which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system which causes the magnetic field to pile up.

    The interstellar medium is pushing back toward the solar system because it is displaced by the particles of matter the solar system consists of.
     
  17. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    I don't deny the existence of the particles. I am able to understand there are too few of them to be what is causing the magnetic field to pile up.

    Are you able to understand the following?

    http://www-ssg.sr.unh.edu/ism/what1.html

    "the interstellar regions are more devoid of matter than any vacuum artificially created on earth"

    Are you able to understand that that means there are too few particles of matter to be what is causing the magnetic field to pile up?

    It is the interstellar medium which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system which causes the magnetic field to pile up.

    The interstellar medium is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system because it is displaced by the solar system.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  18. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    11,585
    Sure

    This is incorrect. Your belief is without merit. Show mathematically that the quantity of particles is too low to affect the magnetic field. I know that is kinda mean because mathematically anything beyond making change is beyond your ability. But that is the problem your gut feel is not science.

    Nope that is your unevidence belief, science shows that you are wrong.

    Again this is jus your unevidence belief and nothing more.
     
  19. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    General Observation: There is a difference between interstellar medium nature/motion, cosmic ray flux, and energy-space ITSELF in which the former two occur.

    The interstellar medium is essentially ubiquitous and effectively 'static' distribution of interstellar 'particles/waves' of general average energy which only 'move' faster towards a gravitating body 'en masse' as a cloud/flow at the usual gravitational-acceleration velocities.

    Whereas cosmic rays are Electromagnetically-accelerated particles achieving above-average and sometimes extreme energies/velocities thereby in addition to any velocity/energy gain from gravitational accelerations.

    The flux of cosmic rays will not affect Pioneer much. The 'static' and/or 'gravitationally accelerated 'inflows/streams' of interstellar medium (rarified 'clouds' of particles/plasmas) will act as a brake through straight forward 'friction/collision' against voyagers'. This cannot occur until voyager actually exits the regions of space where the outgoing solar wind pushes voyager as much as the interstellar wind retards it.

    At the boundary itself, the net effect of interstellar medium acting against and solar wind acting with voyager motion will cause a stagnation 'pause' in trajectory which may be more affected by any local 'swirls' magnetic, plasmic or other localised feature disturbance which has no net direction overall for its action, but creates intermittent accelerations on voyager in randomized directions at any instant depending on what part of these 'swirls' the voyager happens to be involved with.


    And whereas actual 'gravitational' per se does NOT depend on the interstellar medium or cosmic rays. Gravitation per se is a totally different mechanism/dynamics affecting energy-space ITSELF, and is centered on the solar system overall energy-mass feature which generates the g-field in that surrounding energy-space itself, which energy-space 'field' itself in turn tends to accelerate the incoming parts of interstellar medium which meets and stagnates against the outgoing solar wind parts of such 'stellar/interstellar types 'clouds/flows'.


    Enjoy your discussions!
     
  20. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    So, you are able to understand particles of matter exist in the interstellar medium in quantities less than in any vacuum artificially created on Earth.

    Create the best possible vacuum on Earth. Pass a magnetic field through the vacuum. Explain how the particles of matter in the vaccum are capable of causing the magnetic field within the vacuum to pile up. Explain how the particles of matter in the vacuum are able to push back and exert pressure against the magnetic field.

    You can't.

    Do you know why you can't?

    Because there are too few particles in the vacuum to push back and exert pressure toward the magnetic field.

    It is the interstellar medium itself which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system.

    It is the interstellar medium itself which is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system because it is the interstellar medium which is displaced by the particles of matter the solar system consist of.
     
  21. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    Or, you could correctly understand the interstellar medium physically occupies three dimensional space and is physically displaced by the particles of matter the solar system consists of. The interstellar medium is not at rest when displaced and pushes back and exerts inward pressure toward the solar system which causes the magnetic field to pile up.
     
  22. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    From my own t.o.e. perspective:

    I strongly suspect that you are using the descriptor "Interstellar Medium" incorrectly and confusing others. The actual interstellar medium is exactly what I described/differentiated, and which forms part of the 'false vacuum' or 'secondary vacuum' features/dynamics set of phenomena.

    I strongly suspect that you are referring to the energy-space ITSELF, not the interstellar medium as I described/differentiated from that energy-space itself; which energy-space itself forms the underlying 'primary vacuum' features/dynamics from which the 'false/secondary' vacuum/phenomena set arises and subsides in.

    Perhaps it would be better if you also used a term like "energy-space" FUNDAMENTAL "medium" which differs altogether from "interstellar medium" in that the energy-space is EVERYWHERE, and not just 'interstellar' etc.

    That is what is causing confusion, your misuse of the term "interstellar medium". Reword your hypothesis to identify more properly the fundamental background 'arena medium" (which you are also describing as "supersolid" etc etc).

    Maybe then the discussion from others will actually be at least approximately 'on the same page' as you want it to be.

    I'll be back in a few weeks. Until then, good luck, g_a, everyone...and enjoy your discussions!
     
  23. gravitational_aether Banned Banned

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    The interstellar medium is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid. It is the interstellar medium which the particles of matter exist in.

    It is you who is misusing the term interstellar medium. You have to use nonsense terms such as 'energy-space' because of your inability to understand what you refer to as 'energy-space' is the state of the interstellar medium.

    Call it the interstellar medium, aether, ether, plenum, quintessence, Higg's field, quantum foam, quantum vacuum or whatever else you prefer, 'it' exists where particles of matter do not and 'it' is physically displaced by the particles of matter which exist in 'it'. 'It' is what is pushing back and exerting inward pressure toward the solar system which causes the magentic field to pile up.
     

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