magnets transferring energy into electricity.

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by M00se1989, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    If a neodymium magnetic ring were suspended (with diamagnetic suspension) in a vacuum and a copper coil were placed around it. And it had magnets placed around it to aid in its continuous spinning how much energy could it transfer through the wires??? maybe a nobel gas inside to help the energy transfer possibly...
     
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  3. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    As much energy as it initially starts with. I assume you're asking about energy transferred into the coils via induction? The induction causes a back reaction on the object doing the inducing and so it slows down, in complete agreement with conservation of energy. Spinning a superconductor isn't going to magically violate energy conservation (ie perpetual motion) any more than spinning a magnet would. The interplay between two sets of magnets spinning is precisely how electric generators work, but the production of the electricity (ie current) causes the magnets to slow their spin rate and so the only way to keep them going is to put in more energy. This is usually in the form of a steam turbine where the expansion of the steam due to heating drives the turbine. The heat is a constant input of energy, gained from burning things or a nuclear reactor. A spinning superconductor doesn't have a constant input of energy.

    Yes, you can levitate a superconductor using the Meissner effect and then if you spin it in a vacuum it'll not have any friction acting on it and thus could, in principle, spin forever but as soon as you have the resultant electromagnetic field interact with something else, like the coils in your setup, then it'll slow its spin as the energy is transferred.

    How would that in any way help? What would a Noble gas do to help the transfer, everything is done via electromagnetic fields. The only way a gas might help would be if it ionised and acted as a conductor and the Noble gases are the hardest to ionise of all the gases!
     
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  5. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    what about adding the photovoltaic effect into the system and increasing the inertia of the magnet to help it spin through the night? I'm not sure if the coriolis effect would aid the magnet but i know it probably wouldn't hurt if you get it spinnin the right way.

    im fairly certain the extra energy during the day would also speed up the magnet, due to the extra current, and at night the inertia would keep the electric flow moving. plus magnets last for 10,000 years or so last i checked... so yeah as long as the magnet doesn't magically diminish it'll work...

    any takers on helping "physically do this"??
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
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  7. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    Or... You could just use the photovoltaic cells to charge a battery for the night use. The spinning magnet/coil adds nothing except mechanical friction. You can never get more energy out in electricity than you put into into it. As AlphaNumeric has already stated, there only use is to convert mechanical energy to electricity, But you still have to supply the mechanical energy.
     
  8. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    or I could fit some wings on an electric generator and stick it above the house... (sarcasm) in other words I don't really care about making the actual energy....
    your missing the part about inertia... a fundamental part in this particular experiment, which would aid in knowledge of how a mass (specifically a magnetic one) interacts with energy... without sending a giant magnet into space looking for anti-particles such as what nasa is trying to do. < that's also another reason for the vacuum. Unless someone can tell me exactly what would happen if we got a big enough magnet(one with enough inertia rotating and weather or not the coriolis effect would apply, I believe it is an actual valid experiment that can't really be run through a program...
     
  9. Uno Hoo Registered Senior Member

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    "The interplay between two sets of magnets spinning is precisely how electric generators work, but the production of the electricity (ie current) causes the magnets to slow their spin rate and so the only way to keep them going is to put in more energy."

    You Know Who says: The induction of current is caused by a conductor enjoying a time-varying magnetic field strength, normally created by ONE set of conductor(s) rotated in the field provided by ONE set of magnet(s), which are stationary.

    If you don't understand and subsequently believe me, hire some day laborer over on the other side of town to find the engine compartment and then the generator on your favorite classic 1957 Chevy. Task your lackey to remove and take apart the generator. Count the number of rotating conductor set(s). Count the number of stationary magnet set(s). Let us know what your count is.

    Faraday Disk generators of the One-Piece variety are different in layout, but still honor the same underlying principle of induction discovered and published by Michael Faraday a long time ago. All Faraday Disks use ONE set of magnet(s). The exception is a unique setup which is used to prove that a magnetic field does not rotate although the magnet does; two sets of magnets are involved and the result demonstrates that the second magnet (set) has no effect at all on the amount of current.

    The next time you drop out of mathematical hyperspace and try to understand and then explain real physics principles, please read Wiki twice and get your facts straight.

    Thanks a lot, and, have a nice day.
     
  10. Uno Hoo Registered Senior Member

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    In general response to this thread, it is a very hard row to hoe to try to invent a way to go Over-Unity using magnetic fields. Lenz Law always automatically brakes the device by the eddy currents which are induced in any innocent bystanding conductor. A touch of humor there, since the magnet is usually STANDING and the conductor is moving. Assuming that you are working with "regular" generators, the amount of kinetic energy applied to the generator input shaft will be reduced by the braking caused by Lenz Law and eddy currents, and also by the electric resistance of the conductors in the device, so that the power measured in the output terminal is always going to be less than the power measured to be used to turn the input shaft.

    Your interest in electromagnetism and its possibilities is to be applauded. I suggest you research the Faraday Disk patented inventions of Tesla. He had wonderful ideas for improving the efficiency of the generator in its most basic form. Even though you might be disappointed in seeking Over-Unity, you may gain a good education in electromagnetism in general.
     
  11. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    The spin must be relative. I'm aware that generators work by spinning one set while holding the other stationary. The use of the plural 'magnets' was because the original post talked about sets of magnets. That's more than one set of more than one magnet.

    I'm sorry that you're so desperate to take a pot shot at me that you'll jump to conclusions but its not my fault you have a huge chip on your shoulder about how some people can do physics you can't comprehend. In another thread you said you're 67. If that is the case I'm surprised you haven't realised that some things in life you're not very good at, most people realise that at some point in life and learn to accept it.

    Besides, I thought you said I wasn't worth replying to? Or did you just need an excuse in order to get out of that thread on quantum field theory where I'd slammed your ignorance in your face again and you couldn't admit it?

    Doesn't matter what configuration of magnets, which ones are doing what, what size they are, what you attach to them, you are not going to get energy for nothing. If the magnets start with kinetic and potential energy E then if you let them just run then the most electrical energy you can produce is E.

    You seem to think that there's some kind of energy purely from the magnets being magnetic. Yes, you have to put a small amount of energy in in order to magnetise things but you can't then get more energy out. A magnet spinning in a vacuum will only spin for thousands of years if you don't take any energy out. As soon as you make it drive a current through a wire you're going to get it slowing down. Electricity contains energy. To make electricity you must get the energy from somewhere. A spinning magnet has kinetic energy. As it makes electricity it slows its spin and stops. How fast depends on how much electricity it is making and how much motion it starts with. A photovoltaic cell will only be providing more energy, in which case you will get a more efficient energy production by just making electricity from the cell, not turning it into kinetic and then electricity.

    The kinetic energy of the spinning object is a function of its angular inertia. You aren't going to get something for nothing. You're missing basic physics.
     
  12. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    I'm not seeking over unity...I understand you can't make something from nothing I just often use the word "make" instead of whatever word would apply to the particular setup... transfer... conduce... or what not. And I know a bunch of people have failed to use magnets to quote "make" energy/perpetual motion. AHH should have used WIKI induce. lol lol

    im only trying to find the relationship between inertia- elecrgtomagnetism- and possibly density as they may apply. and make a spinning magnet keep spinning for a while cause i think it would be cool to set on a desk... I mean wouldn't the initial force supplied push the magnet to keep spinning??

    the setup has two different inputs both the photovoltaic effect and if the magnet doesn't slow down for a while it would also push some electricity. same properties as an electromagnet just in reverse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  13. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    great idea!!!!!!! I had studied Tesla before but never saw this one!!!!

    so many different directions I could go with this.... it really might "take off" lol

    http://home.earthlink.net/~drestinblack/generator.htm

    exactly as i suspected the magnets on the outside when faced properly will push and pull on the interior rings forces helping sustain its motion especially in a vacuum sealed environment(=

    here is some outside entertainment for "nonbelievers" to discuss... im just trying to beat the hippies at their own game!!!! lol jk solar panels 60% efficiency....5 years to pay for itself...
    perpetual motion
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  14. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    .

    i think there's many ways to do it.
    once i thoght about this.
    you all know the turbine that is placed next to the river or a dam, why not bring a big magnet and put the positive sife, against other magnets that are also against this magnet on the positive side, or bth negative, as you want, and instead the water making that turbine move, the magnet will keep pushin the magnets on each stare of that turbine, and so, it moves, &&... then we got electricity.
    or the contrary, a magnet, attract the magnets that are on the stares of the turbine, while those magnets are attached to the turbine stares effocrse, while the big magnet try to attract those ones, the turbine will move, and again the same story,

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    this is one of the many idea
    i remeber that i studied something about an electricity generator with magnets, and we maked it in class, when i was in school, elementiry school, but i forgot it,
    anyway we tryed a small one, and that tecknique is not very used because it is too expensive comparing to the electrictiy it gives, but it's not expensive if it is made for a one house.
     
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    You have to put energy in to make non-magnetic materials into magnetic ones.
    Doesn't sound inconceivable that you should be able to get energy back again.
     
  16. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    i didnt mean that, i know that one, and i forgot that part,
    but i meant, like the small magnets, is their big or giant magnets, i mean, not those ones that you can make by electricity?
     
  17. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    508
    none the size i personally would be looking for unfortunately... they would have to
    bit the whole base of the operation is to have both positive and negative facing magnets (two of each minimum not circular) focused on a central levitated vacuum sealed one to keep the spin going. magnetrons from microwaves have two fairly decent ones...
    here is how to get them out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YZuxEtzD9c
    might work for my experiment actually.
     
  18. M00se1989 Banned Banned

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    combine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSTAR

    with some High energy laser light and a good vacuum to get it started at and I think we will have a winner.

    A good form to study might just come from magnetron's(= a very simple way to make a plasma gun as well.

    but the first experiment will show a good relationship to how a volume of magnetic energy on earth will interact in combination with the photoelectric effect. lol. Let us not forget the sun has some iron it it as well.
     

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