# Mass Casualty Attack on Orlando Gay Bar

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Jun 12, 2016.

1. ### Dr_ToadIt's green!Valued Senior Member

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Limbaugh and Breitbart, for two..

3. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Who are these representatives from the FBI and where is the evidence they have said what you claim they said? Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, or Fox News said so aren't going to cut it, I'm looking for some credible proofs. I think you are doing what you always do, re-post right wing fictions.

Again, I'd like to see some credible proof to back up those assertions. As is always the case with you, I expect I will be waiting for a very long time. Because it doesn't exist. Unfortunately for you, those like you, and your leaders (i.e. Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, et al.) the truth matters to people outside so called "conservative" circles.

The real irony here is that so the so called American "conservative" movement is anything but conservative. It is radical to the core. Other than the name, there is nothing conservative about it. If politicians had to subscribe to the same laws of truth and honesty we hold the drug industry to, Republican politicians would be in jail.

5. ### BowserNamasteValued Senior Member

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Do you believe a real Christian would murder?

Over how many years?

So there is a requirement that you must like homosexuals? If you don't like homosexuals, "you are an asshole"?

So, if there is a disagreement about any issues that involve homosexuality, you can't follow your conscience, especially when it shines poorly on homosexuality?

Yet it doesn't incite violence. I think abortion is evil, twisted, and immoral. If someone shoots an abortion provider tomorrow, will it be my fault?

7. ### PhysBangValued Senior Member

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The evidence on this is so fucking overwhelming, it is amazing that someone could ever doubt that a Christian could murder. Probably 90% of everyone killed in the USA was killed by a Christian.
Pretty much, yeah. E.g., http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/baybu...ndo-shooting-unbearable-for-christian/2282099

Not if it involves oppressing someone.

If you keep shouting that shit at people, then, in part, yes.

8. ### parmaleeperipatetic artisanValued Senior Member

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(emphasis mine)

And there it is. Not entirely unrelated to the thread topic, but pretty far out there all the same.

9. ### BowserNamasteValued Senior Member

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There's a large void between holding an opinion and gunning down a hundred people.

10. ### BowserNamasteValued Senior Member

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Until someone tells you to commit a crime, it's not incitement. Just learn to deal with the fact that not everyone agrees, and they will express their opinions. Here's another: I think recreational marijuana should be legal. Am I inciting people to break the law?

11. ### Dr_ToadIt's green!Valued Senior Member

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Are you trolling? You seem to have problems with every viewpoint except your own wannabe Christian thing...

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12. ### SchmelzerValued Senior Member

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Nonsense. Strong reactions are usually the consequence of strong actions.

If people don't like to bake cakes, and no reaction follows, they have no reason to become more extreme. If they are faced with a penalty of \$135,000, it is obvious to every reasonable person that this is a completely unjust penalty, because it is clearly violating all ideas about penalties adequate in relation with the wrongdoing, starting from the "an eye for an eye". It is clearly and obviously an escalation. Such inadequate penalties will certainly create and increase hate against all those who support such things. Not to bake cakes for people one does not like is a civilized way to handle such a conflict. The gay couple can find other people who agree to bake cakes for them. To force them to bake cakes is, instead, a form of slavery. To penalize them with \$135,000 for refusal is even more uncivilized than such slavery.

13. ### PhysBangValued Senior Member

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Did I write about the right of someone to "express their opinion"? No, I wrote about shouting at people.

I am sad that you are so ignorant and I hope that you have no authority over anyone.

Your wannabe Christian thing is weird and seems very much in line with the wannabe Muslim thing of the Orlando shooter. You and he both have a lot of anger and a lot of intolerance and a dim view of the world.

14. ### parmaleeperipatetic artisanValued Senior Member

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Agreed. Look at the thread title--mass casualty attack on Orlando gay bar--and then what Bowser has turned this into--a pathetic whine about how he hates gays and ought to be able to to express this and we have to respect that. Disgusting.

15. ### billvonValued Senior Member

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A real Christian as in one who met the textbook definition of Christian? Absolutely - and they have, thousands of times. Look at the police reports from any city and note how many of the murderers are named after Christian disciples.
Nope. There are plenty of homosexuals I don't like.
Again, nope. If you are a homophobe, then Morgan Freeman thinks you are an asshole. I wouldn't say that; I would say someone who judges someone purely on their sexual orientation is simply a bigot.
You can do whatever you want. But if your conscience (or your soul, or the voices in your head, or your morality, or whatever) tells you to treat all blacks like shit, then you are a racist. Period. Doesn't matter if it's your conscience, or society, or the Pope telling you to do it. You may like being a racist; if so, here in the US that is your decision. Of course, if you act on that "conscience" and burn crosses in their front yards, then you will end up in jail.

Same thing with people who judge others based on their sexual orientation. If you simply dislike some people but like others because of how they treat you, or what they do to you, then you are no different than anyone else. If you dislike people based on their sexual orientation (or nationality, or religion etc) you are a bigot.
Nope, not if you just post that on Internet sites. But if you march in front of abortion clinics, and scream "murderer!" every time someone walks by, and talk about your heros Shelly Shannon and Scott Roeder, and there is another assassination at that clinic - then yes, you do bear some of the blame.

16. ### billvonValued Senior Member

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Nope. But if you post the names and addresses of anti-marijuana law enforcement people, and note that it would be a shame if their homes burned down (because then they wouldn't be able to shut down your favorite pot farm) then you would bear some of the blame if the arson was committed.

17. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Incidentally, while Mateen wasn't working for Homeland "Security" (via a sub-contracted British Mercenary firm dropping off undocumented non-Latino immigrants in various cities around the US), he was being reported to the FBI for attempting to purchase mass amounts of bullets and asking about body-armor in an agitated state while speaking in an unidentifiable language on his phone. Oh, and he was apparently denied the sale and that's when he was reported to the FBI.

Robert Abell, Gun Store Owner Reported Mateen to FBI

Last edited: Jun 20, 2016
18. ### madanthonywayneMorning in AmericaRegistered Senior Member

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The perspective of a gay man who is popular among many conservatives and has a name I can't spell, .....Milo Yiannopoulos (I googled the name)

19. ### joepistoleDeacon BluesValued Senior Member

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Well, Trump has a solution, give everyone guns. What could go wrong with giving guns to drunks, right?

20. ### TiassaLet us not launch the boat ...Staff Member

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The Black Ink Post: Part the First

Click to trip.

Now pay attention:

(1) I already know you're not as ignorant about social issues as you pretend to be.

(2) You do not get to deny "America". The Orlando shooter was also an American; he grew up in our culture, was educated in our schools. He lived in Florida. Throughout the entirety of his life, the primary driver in normalizing overt, belligerent discrimination against homosexuals, and normalizing violence and violent rhetoric against homosexuals.

(3) People who advocated all manner of hatred against homosexuals are now trying to cast themselves as our friends in order to enlist us in their Christian-supremacist crusade against Muslims.

(4) Having societal institutions crashing against people for the sake of Christianity is really, really unhealthy for the objects of Christian hatred. It is also really, really unhealthy for everyone else. This shooter was an American. He made his decisions in a context inextricable from American culture. The one thing you don't get to do is wash Christianity's hands of its contribution to these outcomes. Christianity is the justifying argument normalizing violence and violent rhetoric against homosexuals.​

Remember, you aren't even a Christian↗; you don't get to speak for them.

Still, though, if you wish to advocate on their behalf, you should probably try working with reality. Twenty-five years, now, I've been hearing Christians calling for our murders, and that's simply since I tuned into the issue of gay rights because a bunch of Christians went out of their way to demand that I did. Though we've won out over the years, violent rhetoric has become so normalized within Christian circles that this year Republican presidential candidates pitched to be seen demonstrating their piety for the sake of being seen beside others alongside a crazed Christian deathmonger. That's pretty normalized. The Christian response to suicide rates among gay youths was to restrict access to counseling and mental health resources through legislatures. Organized legislative response counts as pretty normalized.

This has been going on longer than the shooter was alive.

People have pointed to American Christians' involvement in the Uganda bill; Scott Lively has long had the ear of Christian radio and print media; consulting with foreign governments as American Christian advisors is pretty damn normalized.

There was a time when using one's political campaign or office to advocate mass murder was disqualifying. There was a time when associating with bloodthirsty elements was considered inappropriate for responsible political service.

In trying to make this about "Muslims", conservative Christians have been erasing the queer community from its own tragic experience↑. It really is a weird thing to watch. You present the other effect, erasing America from its own tragic experience.

Omar Mateen―and that's his name, as loath as I am to ever speak or write it―was an American. He was also a human being, and generally speaking, his father's hatred would be more influential than Daa'ish.

You know, my peripheral family is freaking out right now, and it's hard to tell what's actually going on, but essentially the word is that my cousin's nineteen year-old, white, Christian, American, six-foot-something, skinny, gawky, floppy middle son is in the middle of radicalizing and converting. Like I said, it's hard to tell, because once they realized what thy were saying, they started walking back their descriptions of his behavior. This time last year he was looking forward to joining the Marine Corps; this year he's scrawling "Death to America" on social media, and the thing is that this might be about a girl.

And, you know, the kid has everything in the world to complain about. I'll just say his immediate family is chaos, in prior days we would have said the line is cursed since not one of the children was born without health and lasting developmental problems; he tried to be normal but all he got for joining sports teams in school was a lifetime prospect of chronic pain; one of his best friends just committed suicide for hearing voices; undereducated, lonely, with no real economic prospects―this is his starting point for the adulthood he looked forward to all his life. To the one, no wonder he's angry. To the other, we're also in a period when admiration of antisocial behavior and principles is in fashion.

He's ripe for the picking, and according to the first explanation we heard―now heavily revised and de-escalated, despite the apparent social media postings―someone or something is getting through to him. And his whole life he's heard this rhetoric about society's failures and finding someone to blame. Still, though, really? Islamist hardline radicalism? For a white American Lutheran?

Is this really happening? I think so, but the information is unreliable, and while it is hard to calculate, say, a vector of irony, it does seem worth pointing out that what is clouding information right now―the information coming from the family members hwo can tell us what's going on―is actually Christian pride.

This, too, is common; I'm presently near to powerless, and trying to think of something―anything!―in an ugly situation involving a close friend who is struggling with opiate addiction. Long story short, information resources about what is going on are exceptionally unreliable because, to the one, I'm hearing an addict tell me everything is okay right now when clearly it isn't, and, to the other, all I can get from family around her are reminders that she's adopted, they did what they could, and it's not their fault she's wrecking their lives. And, yes, it is exactly Christian pride causing the problem.

And that's the thing; where this Christian pride comes into it isn't well-defined, but by the time it is asserting in our society its equally protected right to supremacy under law, it's pretty clear these people would be better off just admitting they've been being petty brats, and then we can all just get on with living our lives. Because trying to pretend there's nothing wrong is exactly how "kill the gays" reaches the valence of presidential politics.

Christians are the prevailing driver of murderous homophobia in the United States of America, where Omar Mateen was born, raised, and educated; the fact that he was Muslim is exactly as important or incidental as Christianity is in considering Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, Scott Roeder, Robert Lewis Dear, and other Christians so notorious.

Consider, please, the Politifact↱ article you've seen deployed in this thread as response to one of our neighbors. An important point slips by in the setup:

It came after Hewitt brought up the shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic that left three dead and nine injured in Colorado Springs, Colo., over Thanksgiving weekend. Hewitt told Cruz that he’d been doing anti-abortion events for 25 years and had never met "a single pro-life activist who is in favor of violence of any sort."

Cruz agreed.
"And I would note that this whole episode has really displayed the ugly underbelly of the media," Cruz said ....

It's an interesting pretense; Sen. Cruz (R-TX) at that time had the endorsement of Troy Newman, who advocates violence; his organization has claimed credit for terrorism, naming him in particular. His right hand is a convicted anti-abortion terrorist.

This is how Christians normalize bigoted violence. Just like Mr. Cruz rushed to the side of the bloodlusting Pastor Swanson, who also praised the murder of George Tiller.

Ted Cruz pals around with Christian terrorists, and we're not supposed to notice? That's pretty damn normalized. He rushes to demonstrate his piety for the sake of being seen by others at the side of a bloodlusting Christian pastor?

You don't get to erase all this. You don't get to pretend it doesn't exist. You don't get to play Pilate for the Christians.

―End Part I―
____________________

Notes:

Jacobson, Louis. "Are the 'overwhelming majority of violent criminals' Democrats? Ted Cruz said so". Politifact. 1 December 2015. Politifact. 20 June 2016. http://bit.ly/1UnSlaD

21. ### TiassaLet us not launch the boat ...Staff Member

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Part the Second

Click for techno.

There is a question of differentiation and demarcation; quite clearly not all Christians are bloodthirsty, megalomaniacal, terror-sympathizing bigots. Market outcomes, however, are pretty clear.

I wonder if you're capable of recognizing the phrase "liberal Christianity" by any definition other than the one invented by conservative Christians? After all, when you pretended to not know what rape culture was, apparently the only information resources you were capable of finding were by men denouncing the proposition of rape culture.

There is a reason, Bowser, you are viewed as so unreliable.

The thing is that for various reasons, some of which are even Biblical, many liberal Christians don't identify in any manner countervailing conservative evangelical Christianity; even if we pretend these liberal Christians are some manner of statistical majority, they do not have the overt market impact their conservative, squeaky-wheel brethren have managed to create over the years. In the end, the Christianity that affects the daily lives of my queer brothers and sisters so terribly, that hounds women even beyond the grave from sea to shining sea and beyond, that advocates, sympathizes with, and normalizes political violence, is not found among this apparent minority of liberal Christians.

We know they exist; they've been in the fight before. We needed their votes to win when we won. But they're not really doing anything to refute the evangelical conservative claim to represent and define Christianity; the discourse has essentially written them out until they get back into the fight.

Right now, it appears only a small handful, and they generally know to not protest the avalanche of criticism crashing on "Christianity" for the sake of their bigoted brethren having so defined the word.

There really is no way around it: Christians made a tangible contribution to Omar Mateen's decision.

I take it back; there is a way around it. That is, one can pretend astounding ignorance of history particularly relevant to the subject they purport to discuss.

If you intend to undertake extraordinary argumentative positions, you ought to be prepared to provide an extraordinary argument. This lazy pretense of ignorance is no excuse.

And there is one other thing worth pointing out: You have asked, in another thread↗, "What is a real Christian?" While this is a complex question, and it is hard to set one definitive standard, one thing worth observing is that Christian bigotry generally depends on the Old Testament and Pauline Evangelism―i.e., Christ is absent from these assertions of Christianity.

It's hard to say what the proper definition of Christianity is, but like the definition of art, we often know what it ain't. And I have a joke about my local McDonald's: Fast food is neither.

(What? Fifteen minutes for a "shake" with no dairy in it?)

And it is true: Conservative Christianity is neither.

Nor is that definitive, but the way to shrug it off is to admit that conservative principles expressed do not equal conservative principles believed or effected.

(What? Small government wants to regulate your sex life. And your library. And your music. And your movie collection. And the scientific record. And the scientific method. And the historical record. And the principles of ontology. And your human rights. Either these people aren't conservative according to how conservatives describe conservative principles, or conservatives are generally lying when reciting the most common tropes describing American conservative principles.)

One of the persistent frustrations in my political life is that while these notions provide myriad opportunities for fascinating and enlightening discussion, but I haven't been able to have a fascinating and enlightening discussion―or even one that got past fanatical recitation of talking points and potsherds―with a conservative in years.

You're just another example of why.

Look, it's not that conservative opinions don't matter; it's just that it would be nice if, every once in a while, reasonable accommodation of the conservative disability did not demand an unceasing pretense of ignorance. In the end, conservative opinions are emblematic of something very wrong haunting our society; those opinions are worth more as examples of human frailty to be healed than for any policy or politics they might purport.

―Fin―

22. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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Good, I was really wondering what an imbecilic twit would think about it.

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23. ### spidergoatLiddle' Dick TaterValued Senior Member

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Legally no, morally yes.