Metallic hydrogen, once theory, becomes reality:

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by paddoboy, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Nup, actually as I said, a cop out. These things will take time, as there are many difficulties to overcome, and neither you nor I can know what economic conditions/ situations will prevail in 100, 200 500 or a 1000 years hence.
    And of course if success is achieved, nothing will stop the inevitable progress.
    But I suppose we even had pessimists that decried and derided the Kennedy proclamation of putting man on the Moon by the end of the 60's.

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    Bingo! just as many reputable physicists and scientists are working towards even at this early stage.
    Despite your anguish qeerus, no one will stop human and technological progress.
    Yes, given time, we will certainly go to the stars!
    Afterall, we were not born to stagnate on this fart arse little blue Orb, and of course once again, the bottom line is that the research into this and many other "difficult" but not impossible scenarios will continue.
     
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  3. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    It's typical of you to throw around words without regard to their proper use. How exactly have I 'copped out' here? Gibberish.
    Of course but that is simply pushing the issues out to the indefinite future and assuming time will take care of everything. Easy to engage in such amateur futurism. Won't be around to have to eat your words.
    Profoundly non-profound. I reckon if things succeed, there will be success!
    Not many that mattered. By that stage JFK had enough hard data from experts to be confident in making that pronouncement. Only the timing - 'before this decade is out' - was a gamble.
    You just don't get it re metallic/superconducting hydrogen quest. It has fascinated generations of a certain small contingent of physicists as an intellectual and experimental challenge. But the PR hype promoting 'fantastic possible benefits' simply mask the sad reality there is almost no prospect of any such payoffs. Research funds are from a limited pool, and they should be allocated according to the realistic prospects of useful payoff. Thankfully the allocation to this niche area probably reflects that reasonably well. I don't confuse self-serving research-fund-seeking hype for reality.
    More skewed rhetoric. What is my 'anguish' here, and where do you get the idea I am some how anti-progress? More gibberish.
    Which amounts to a religious statement - 'manifest destiny'. Pure, hugely premature, speculation.
    Which is true. About as controversial as declaring the sun will rise tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    What is gibberish and typical of you, is your usual ignoring of facts, as has ben amply illustrated elsewhere.
    Let me educate you again.....
    You nor I nor anyone else can sit there and gauge what economical and/or political scenarios, will be present 100, years, 200 years, or a 1000 years or more hence.

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    Quite ironic I must say when it is you trying to dictate economic circumstances into the distant future. All I'm doing is supporting the fact that not withstanding any catastrophic event/s, science and technology will progress and most aspects that are allowed by GR and the laws of physics maybe realised.
    Success will be the impetus for more success, and technological advancements.

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    Did he? We had put humans into Earth orbit....

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    Why even Lord Kelvin in his exchange decried human flight only a decade before the Wright Brothers.
    ps: Please don't confuse the otherwise great scientist that Lord Kelvin was, compared to yourself.
    Again, the point is as you have ignored, that while difficulties exist in this scenario, that now the nut has been cracked so to speak, further research into possibilities will continue.

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    I didn't say you were anti progress, heaven forbid! Pessimistic attitude perhaps

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    I do believe though that you have an agenda as was revealed elsewhere.
    Plus of course your pessimism is tied to that agenda.

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    Grasping at straws now qreeus!
    All I'm doing is saying that not withstanding any catastrophic even, we will progress....particularly in space travel...to Mars and beyond, and then most probably to the stars.......religious statement? No, simply extrapolating the inevitable.

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    and yet rather a weird and ironic statement from someone who is supporting ID in past threads!

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    Great, that's all I'm saying. So what are you blabbering about then?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Somewhere in all my stuff I should have an old article, maybe twenty years ago, and perhaps from Scientific American, though I'd have to find it to be certain, about an attempt to metallize hydrogen that involved discharging a gas-combustion cannon the length of two articulated buses or some such in order to drive the slug into a metal packet containing a certain amount of hydrogen, and something in their result suggested they achieved, for some short period, density sufficient to argue metal hydrogen. But it wasn't even a microsecond; I just remember it because, hell, a freaking cannon of that size?

    I'll have to see if I can find it. But I saw the magazine last time I reorganized a bunch of stuff, a few years ago, so it should still be somewhere in the house.
     
  8. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    The rest of your skewed, repetitive shit is not worth addressing, but that one I will not let pass. Name my so-called agenda. Point to specific posts in specific threads - and it had better be shown to be in proper context. And to think someone recently erected a thread in your 'honour'. What an overall shithole SF is. Apologies to the exceptions.
     
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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    A piece of advice my friend.....If you are unable to stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Your irony never ceases to amaze me.
     
  10. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Don't talk more skewed shit. You made a claim - now back it up!
     
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  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    This?


    Covering this event in 1996:

    USING a 60-foot-long gun, physicists at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory have created a metallic form of hydrogen.

    Livermore's experiments used a powerful device called a two-stage light gas gun. In the first section of the gun, some 30 feet long, a gunpowder explosion blasts a piston from one end to the other. The piston drives hydrogen gas ahead of it, and the hydrogen reaches a very high pressure before bursting a disk at the far end. The pressurized hydrogen then enters a much thinner "launch tube," driving before it a projectile made of plastic and metal. This type of gun has fired projectiles at speeds up to nine miles per second.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/26/science/big-gun-makes-hydrogen-into-a-metal.html

    and here...

    Livermore's Big Guns Produce Liquid Metallic Hydrogen
    http://physics.bgsu.edu/~layden/TMP/A321/Articles/liquid_hydrogen.pdf
     
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  12. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Given claim in 2017 OP article, and sceptical quotes and links in #4, #5, Livermore announcement was just another one of a string of earlier premature and later invalidated claims.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Here's another earlier paper on the subject, 2013......
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6851.pdf
    Possibility of obtaining atomic metallic hydrogen by electrochemical method:

    Although hydrogen is the simplest atom, it forms extraordinary solids and liquids. It was shown in theoretical works, that hydrogen can transfer into metallic phase under high pressure1 . Moreover resulting metallic hydrogen shall have metastable state at room temperature and pressure2 . Metallic hydrogen shall possess a series of unique properties. First, its density shall be 10-13 times higher, than the density of liquid molecular hydrogen3,4 , i.e. it shall be the high capacity accumulator of hydrogen. Second, it shall be an ideal rocket fuel with specific energy 20 times higher than liquid hydrogen-oxygen fuel3,4 . Third, at room temperature, it shall be a good conductor and possible that a superconductor5 . However, it was not yet possible to obtain metallic hydrogen, in spite of the efforts of many researchers during more than 75 years. Here we demonstrate, that atomic metallic hydrogen (AMH) is formed inside of metal-ceramic oxide-nickel electrodes of nickel-cadmium battery over a long period of electrochemical hydrogenation (more than five years). We separated AMH from nickel metal by electrochemical dissolution of metalceramic nickel matrix, and researched its properties. It was established that density of AMH is 0.85 g cm-3 , released specific energy of hydrogen recombination is 216 MJ kg-1 , resistivity is 1.5  cm, and AMH is not a superconductor at room temperature. The obtained parameters of AMH coincide with the theoretical values forecasted earlier3,4
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6851.pdf
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Again difficulties involved and as discussed by the professionals, means obviously that more research is needed and certainly will continue,taking into account the enormous benefits if success is achieved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
  14. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Contrary to the rules, you provided no link to the cut & paste bizarre claim in #30. I found it: https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6851
    Wikipedia's list makes no mention of that 'electrochemical production method': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen
    Hence, it is almost certainly pseudoscience. And given the time-frame of alleged method, hugely impractical and costly even if true. Dredging without checking. Typical of SF's 'champion' poster.
     
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  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Apologies, I forgot.
    Please check back my friend.

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  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Costs are way beyond anything you can forecast qreeus as I have explained.
    And again, the botton line is that this research will continue until something more concrete one way or the other is established...just as it is continuing with warp drive and controlled nuclear fusion as well of course a validated form of a QGT...that's science my friend.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Nice video at the following link explaining how this metallic state could still be maintained even with the pressures off, and of course the possible benefits to space flight........
    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/01/a-breakthrough-in-high-pressure-physics/
    excerpt
    “One prediction that’s very important is metallic hydrogen is predicted to be meta-stable,” Silvera said. “That means if you take the pressure off, it will stay metallic, similar to the way diamonds form from graphite under intense heat and pressure, but remain diamonds when that pressure and heat are removed"
     
  18. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Given the extreme care needed just in preparing the inner diamond anvils, it's obvious something completely out of the blue would be needed to allow commercially useful production quantities. Which further supposes the theorized metastability allowing metallic solid H at STP is real. Given there is no hint they achieved that in the heroic experiment, we must assume they were the tiniest fraction off success, or some niffy alloy composition (LiH6 si a candidate) might do the trick.

    Let's suppose such a twin breakthrough somehow eventuates. Further again, that it turns out to be a room temperature superconductor. Given it's specific energy content is around 20 times that of liquid oxygen/liquid hydrogen combo, in turn around an order of magnitude higher than equivalent of say TNT....
    If something can go wrong it will. Imagine the potential result when an unexpected power surge or act of vandalism/terrorism disrupts that shiny superconducting high tension transmission network snaking everywhere within and between cities and power plants. Does the word KABOOM spring to mind? Best not contemplated too near bedtime.
    Methinks cooler heads will shelve the superconducting H dream, and settle at best for, as I wrote earlier, a potentially very powerful high explosive with mostly clandestine military and allied uses.

    Oh, I apologize in advance for being such a pessimist realist.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No problem, but I do prefer to listen to those professionals at the coal face, rather then the usual adverse comment on forums such as this, open to any Tom, Dick or Harry.
     
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I did wonder about the wisdom of widespread use of a metastable phase of an element that could instantly revert from solid to gas - and inflammable gas at that - when suitably triggered....

    And the hideous pressures required would probably preclude commercial scale manufacture for some decades, I'd have thought........

    Even if this stuff actually has been made, which seems still in doubt......

    All in all, we're a bit far from envisaging room temp metallic hydrogen superconductors revolutionising society just yet.......

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  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    But we all agree I'm sure that research into something that could prove as benificial as this continue.....which obviously it will.

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  22. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, but there is one indirect spinoff that may prove a commercial success - and soon! I have an idea. Writing the script for a new-angle, near-to-medium-term-future Sci-Fi Hollywood blockbuster disaster flick. You know, where the best of intentions goes horribly wrong. Thanks to a bad combo of overzealous scientists, technocrats, greedy corporate types, and self-serving politicians keen to be seen as farsighted champions of 'the future'. No guesses as to the star attraction.

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  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Like I said earlier, some see the difficulty in every opportunity, while others see an opportunity in every difficulty.
    I'll certainly though keep my ear to the ground re further inevitable research and findings and obviously publish them here.

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