Missing Invitees

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by 2+2, Jul 31, 1999.

  1. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    One event in the Bible that is very important to Christians is the Resurrection story. One thing that I never understood is how the disciples missed it. Here they follow this prophet around for a long time. They see him perform many miracles with their own eyes. He raises a dead man, and walks on water. And he says many wonderful things too. But he tells everybody that he's going to be crucified, but that he is going to come back to life in three days (I have been in cults more than once for long periods,and if your guru, your LINK TO GOD, said this, you would not sleep in that morning). Even the Pareses sent soldiers to guard the tomb because they thought the followers would steal the corpse and say that he had arisen (Duh, they remembered what he said, they heard it).

    My theory is that the soldiers slept (good weed, man!), and the disciples did steal him back, and that is why they didn't wait around.

    Plus we have all these reports of what happened at the trial and crucifixion. Don't you think that if there had really been a guy who disappeared we would have lots of city news about that too. Not just Bible news.

    And John 20:9 for as yet they did not know the scripture, that he must rise from the dead.>but he told the disciples so often, that I just think that is a really lame excuse for something..."none of them remembers how he said he had to go to Jerusalem and get crucified and rise on the third day? Not one?"

    Perhaps this isn't the right venue for this, but this scene is critical to Christianity. Many millions of us "believe" it?

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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
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  3. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    2+2,
    You have a very good point. I used to come
    here a lot before. I gave many scripture
    ref's to the "christians" regarding contradictions of the bible...you know..not
    one could address them directly. They talked
    around it...but that was it.
    Wonder why that is?????? LOL
     
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  5. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    Flash, this topic has sat here like a smelly fish for ten days...and I'm getting the feeling that this board is for the "Big Ideas" that the regular members post.

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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
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  7. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    naw...don't worry about that..sometimes that
    is just how it works out. I used to come
    here several times a day... I have just been
    unable to this past month.. wait til Lori
    starts coming back... then look out LOL
    she and I differ on our views..but she is
    a great person.
     
  8. H-kon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Yeah.. you just wait for em to get back in business, theres gonna be alot of posting going on here. I agree with Lori on some, and Flash on some, so i always get in the middle ( stroking them both so they wont get pi$$sed LOL)

    I don't know if you have found the things i sent you Flash, but such things are things that people can't deny, and people won't touch it because they really do not have anything to counter it.
    2+2: I think you have hit the right thing.. There are so many things about the bible that i really can't figure out.. Now you have pointed out another thing for me to think about.. Also remember one thing.. The bible was written by the same people that thought the Earth was flat, so they can't have everything right.

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    "We didn't inherit this world from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children".
     
  9. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Hey H-Kon
    LMAO ohhhhhhhh I see how it is now... keeping things at peace for yourself hahaha
    Smart very smart!!
    Actually, I really have not looked up what
    you sent to me

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    I have a new job...
    and now I am back on a sucky shift so I
    still won't be able to post much like I thought I was going to ..but I will do my
    best

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    You are right in reference to the same
    people that wrote the bible are the same
    ones that thought the world to be flat. Besides... the Bible is FILLED with tons
    and tons of contradictions...something is
    wrong with that picture ..don't ya think? Then the "christians" pass them of as if that
    is not important to consider??? I don't get it.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    I wanted to stick my nose in here and add one thing about the people who wrote the Bible. Standard curriculum in Jesuit high schools, at least, as of 1990, taught a few things about the creation of the Bible. Namely, the four common Gospels were written 60-200 years after the alleged Christ died, but I'm sure most of us knew that, so excuse me if that's repetitive.

    The part that blew my mind then, and still continues to amaze people when they first hear it, was that at one time there were as many as sixty-four Gospels, and that, during an Ecumenical council early in Roman Church history pared that down to four, allegedly for accuracy purposes. Strange, though, how many of the apocryphal "gospels" aren't deliberately rosy toward Jesus. The Gospel of St. Thomas and the Gospel of St. Mary come to mind as examples. Thus, though they may have thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, Biblical authors certainly made political manipulation part of their infamous resumes.

    As to the Old Testament, a Franciscan nun teaching in that Jesuit structure taught that much of the Old Testament was written by Essene scribes. All I can say here is that the most visible Essene contribution in the modern day are God-love nursery rhymes on soap-wrappers.

    Ever read Dr. Bronner's soap? Remember when you do that these people wrote the Old Testament.

    later,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  11. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    Tiassa, funny how the keepers of the faith want to believe that they really (really) know what is going on here!? Maybe it's just human nature to have to FEEL right...to FEEL that you and your crew really know whats going on...?

    Did your teachers ever talk about this particular confusion that I bring up?, about the disciples not getting it about the resurrection. This idea about "beating death" must ahave been what being a prophet was all about...a healer by touch.

    Plus, you gotta believe that back then if you got sick, then everyone said, "He/she got that plague (whatever) because god doesnt love them...because of x-reason. They had it coming. I still hear that nonsense everywhere I go.

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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
  12. MrCynic Registered Member

    Messages:
    3
    As the name states, I am a cynic by nature. But strangely enough, I am also religious, being a fairly good Catholic. The thing I try to remember about the Bible is that it is sometimes allegorical. Jesus told stories to make a point, and it seems logical that those compiling the Bible would do the same. Taken from that perspective, it's a much more dramatic story if no one is around to witness the actual resurrection.

    Or, if you'd like to look at it from a totally realistic standpoint (non-allegorical), put yourself in the place of said disciples. Your leader has just been put to a violent death. The general populace has turned against you. Soldiers are rounding up your fellow followers. You're scared and confused, despite what your leader has told you to expect. Do you: A) Head over to the tomb where there are sure to be soldiers waiting? Or B) Stay away, and see what happens next?

    Finally, as to the historical accuracy of the Bible, I ask you this: Name me one history that's over 16 centuries old that you would trust to be completely accurate? While I can't speak for those who take the Bible as the absolute truth and word of God, to my mind the Bible is an important history written by committee. And like any committee, things have been added or deleted to meet its objectives. The core message, though, of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" still remains a key tenet of civilization. All we have to do is figure out how to do it.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    Ray Bradbury writes a great resurrection in "Graveyard for Lunatics" (Knopf, 1990). Great novel if you like mysteries.

    Jesus, if I recall, was raised in Galilee, which, if I recall, was a hotbed of zealotry and political idealism. He hung out with John the Baptist, and if tradition is to be believed, he was brash enough to tell the rabbis to shove it when he was twelve.

    Religion, like politics, always reaches out to the most desperate segment of society. (I understand fully that the American political system conveniently ignores the segments too desperate to consider, but those of us who are eating daily and living in reasonable homes hear we have it terrible, according to CNN). Fishermen have always been excellent fishermen. But how many of them read? How many of them were theoretic thinkers? Or a tax collector? That wasn't, in its day, a high-IQ job.

    What I'm getting at here is that the disciples were not necessarily a brain trust. It is conceivable that they didn't even realize the religious implications of what they were doing. Religious reform has gone hand in hand with social reform. Centuries of Irish history teach us that; religious reform scoured the American continent clean of its former empires. Advocating religious reform often meant advocating social reform.

    Jesus was condemned as a subversive and a thief. It was only in mockery that he suffered as "King of the Jews".

    Consider that the Revelations were written during dire times for the fledgling Church. Does it not seem, in such a context, a stirring tale? A rally cry?

    I think the reasons the disciples fumble in the Gospels is that they aren't a religious sect but a cadre of pacifist zealots. How can the players act the part if they don't know what the script means to the audience?

    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  14. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    What I'm getting at here is that the disciples were not necessarily a brain trust. It
    is conceivable that they didn't even realize the religious implications of what they were
    doing. I think the reasons the disciples fumble in the Gospels is that they aren't a
    religious sect but a cadre of pacifist zealots. How can the players act the part if they
    don't know what the script means to the audience?</p>

    <font color="#800040">I am saying that the disciples were told numerous times by Jesus
    that he was going to get crucified in Jerusalem, but not to worry: He would rise on the
    third day.&nbsp; They had seen him perform many miracles and say wonderful things, even
    raise a dead man. But they didn't even wait by the tomb to see what would happen.&nbsp; In
    Luke24:11 Mary Magdalene reports to the eleven that the lord is risen, and they don't
    believe it...and say that this is an &quot;idle story.&quot;&nbsp; Christianity would want
    us to accept what even the disciples wouldn't.</font></p>

    &nbsp;</p>

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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
  15. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    MrCynic,
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">&nbsp;</p>

    As the name states, I am a cynic by nature. But strangely enough, I am also religious,
    being a fairly good Catholic. The thing I try to remember about the Bible is that it is
    sometimes allegorical. Jesus told stories to make a point, and it seems logical that those
    compiling the Bible would do the same. Taken from that perspective, it's a much more
    dramatic story if no one is around to witness the actual resurrection. </p>

    </font><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2" color="#800040">I am not talking about
    allegories, or anything that Jesus said.&nbsp; I am talking about how strange it is that
    the disciples missed the Resurrection.&nbsp; I think if there had been a few hundred
    people there it would be much more &quot;believable.&quot;&nbsp; Even if the disciples HAD
    been there it would be a more logical story.&nbsp; But they didn't believe that he was
    going to rise.&nbsp; They did not believe in him.</font><font face="Verdana, Arial"
    size="2"></p>

    Or, if you'd like to look at it from a totally realistic standpoint (non-allegorical),
    put yourself in the place of said disciples. Your leader has just been put to a violent
    death. The general populace has turned against you. Soldiers are rounding up your fellow
    followers. You're scared and confused, despite what your leader has told you to expect. Do
    you: A) Head over to the tomb where there are sure to be soldiers waiting? Or B) Stay
    away, and see what happens next? </p>

    </font><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2" color="#800040">The general population had
    not turned against them. Soldiers were not rounding up Jesus' followers either.&nbsp; So
    that's not so realistic...&quot;Your scared and confused...&quot;&nbsp; I don't see that
    written anywhere.&nbsp; &quot;...despite what your leader has told you to expect.&quot;
    &nbsp; You mean about the resurrection??&nbsp; They didn't believe it.&nbsp; Try reading
    the last parts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.&nbsp; It'll take only a few minutes and
    then you'll understand me better.</font><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"></p>

    Finally, as to the historical accuracy of the Bible, I ask you this: Name me one
    history that's over 16 centuries old that you would trust to be completely accurate? While
    I can't speak for those who take the Bible as the absolute truth and word of God, to my
    mind the Bible is an important history written by committee. And like any committee,
    things have been added or deleted to meet its objectives. The core message, though, of
    &quot;Love thy neighbor as thyself&quot; still remains a key tenet of civilization. All we
    have to do is figure out how to do it.</font></p>

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2" color="#800040">Maybe when we stop worshipping an
    idea, and focus on life we humans will learn to love each other. Life has its emotional
    component of Death...shame.&nbsp; </font></p>
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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    Perhaps they didn't wait around because they were too drunk. I know I would have been, had I been that close to Jesus. I'm serious here.

    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  17. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    Perhaps they didn't wait around because they were too drunk. I know I would have been,
    had I been that close to Jesus. I'm serious here.

    <font color="#800040">

    Where is the serious part?&nbsp; First you say they were stupid, and now you throw out
    that they were drunk.</font></p>

    <font color="#800040">But imagine, you have spent the last few years with the sweetest
    talking person that there ever was. He also performed miracles that seemed to demonstrate
    tremendous power with a direct link to (he claimed) the one God. And he was a prophet. And
    he preformed many feats in order to fulfill previous prophecies that were written in past
    generations.&nbsp; These guys, Jesus' disciples knew this, and felt the power...why else
    would they follow him?&nbsp; If you re-read the ends of the first 4 books of the NT...that
    would be cool.&nbsp; I figured the Jesuits would have a quick knock-down answer to this
    question.&nbsp; It must come up all the time like the 2000 year old man!</font></p>
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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    Seriously, if I had been part of a political movement that pulled off some of the things Jesus' ministry is said to have done ... I'd be drunk when my leader died. Very, very drunk.

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  19. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    <blockquote>
    <blockquote>


    Seriously, if I had been part of a political movement that pulled off some of the
    things Jesus' ministry is said to have done ... I'd be drunk when my leader died. Very,
    very drunk.</p>
    </blockquote>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Seriously?&nbsp; So all the miracles and sweet-talking was just a
    cover-up for some poor and ignorant drunks trying to make some political maneuvers?
    &nbsp; Kewl!</font></p>
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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    A drunk, ill-bred conspiracy is, I suppose, a possibility. Of course, I forgot that anybody who hung around Jesus was spared the frightening depth of human emotion. So, no, the disciples would not have been depressed at Jesus' execution, and had they been, they certainly would not have displayed it in a form common to human society--say, getting drunk.

    How silly of me.

    What point am I missing here?

    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  21. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    I feel that you are missing the point that his brethren failed to show up, or later even believe that he had been resurrected. I find that strange, especially since we are all supposed to accept this tall tale or spend eternity in hell.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,891
    What I'm having a hard time with is that you seem to think that people don't miss important events to get drunk.

    OK--Jesus is arrested, and I would actually expect the disciples to hide. Upon his conviction, I would expect some to return to the daylight in order to put up the good fight. Upon his death? I can see people getting drunk and losing track of the days.

    Now, which location or event is in question? Really, for most political movements, abject drunkenness is probably the most common excuse for absence I've ever known.

    So if I've got you correct over the duration of our exchange, the disciples were all brilliant philosophers who chose to follow one reformer? And in that day of ultra-clean and plentiful water, they didn't consume spirits?

    Frankly, I'm wondering if our inability to find common ground stems from a basic perspective difference. It sounds, in a couple of places (e.g. when you mention how we're all supposed to believe the story, no questions asked), like what you're pursuing is a reconciliation of traditional data and modern behavior. If this is the case, I can only urge you to abandon this pursuit. Logic and conduct cannot come together in modern Christianity because logic becomes utterly subjective when applied to faith circumstances.

    Elsewise, I haven't a clue what to tell you.

    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  23. 2+2 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    55
    What I'm having a hard time with is that you seem to think that people don't miss
    important events to get drunk. </p>

    OK--Jesus is arrested, and I would actually expect the disciples to hide. Upon his
    conviction, I would expect some to return to the daylight in order to put up the good
    fight. Upon his death? I can see people getting drunk and losing track of the days. </p>

    <blockquote>


    Now, which location or event is in question? </p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">What!?&nbsp; You have forgotten so quickly??&nbsp; It is the
    Resurrection we are talking about.</font></p>

    <blockquote>


    Really, for most political movements, abject drunkenness is probably the most common
    excuse for absence I've ever known. </p>
    </blockquote>

    <blockquote>


    So if I've got you correct over the duration of our exchange, the disciples were all
    brilliant philosophers who chose to follow one reformer? And in that day of ultra-clean
    and plentiful water, they didn't consume spirits? </p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Check close darling, because I never said anything close to this.</font></p>

    <blockquote>


    Frankly, I'm wondering if our inability to find common ground stems from a basic
    perspective difference.</p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Maybe you are coming from the alcohol perspective?</font></p>

    <blockquote>


    It sounds, in a couple of places (e.g. when you mention how we're all supposed to
    believe the story, no questions asked), like what you're pursuing is a reconciliation of
    traditional data and modern behavior.</p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Really?&nbsp; It sounds like that?&nbsp; What exactly are you
    talking about??&nbsp; Traditional data...what's that?&nbsp; Modern behavior&nbsp; Is that
    definable?&nbsp; Sounds to me like a martini.</font></p>

    <blockquote>


    If this is the case, I can only urge you to abandon this pursuit.</p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Don't worry about me.&nbsp; I am not chasing.</font> </p>

    <blockquote>


    Logic and conduct cannot come together in modern Christianity because logic becomes
    utterly subjective when applied to faith circumstances. </p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040">Oh!&nbsp; I see.&nbsp; Logic just doesn't work.&nbsp; It's like
    in some &quot;situations&quot; eleven out of eleven would just go get drunk for two or
    three days...</font></p>

    <font color="#800040">&quot;Yo Tom!!! What day did the Son of Man say he was gonna
    rise???&nbsp; Was it Tuesday or Wednesday?&quot;</font></p>

    <blockquote>


    Elsewise, I haven't a clue what to tell you.</p>
    </blockquote>

    <font color="#800040"><small><small>&quot;Elsewise&quot; isn't a word...clueless.
    &nbsp; </small></small>Thanks for the chase.</font></p>
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    The landscape opened like a children's book...
    It has the look of careful joy.John N Morris
     

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