To say that we are slaves to God is like saying we are slaves to gravity, or slaves to the laws of physics. Every action has a consequence. You can choose to jump off a cliff if you want, but you cannot choose the messy outcome. You can choose to disobey God but you cannot choose the consequence of that which is to be cut off from God forever. Luckily we have a loving God who provided a savior Jesus Christ to redeem us and give us a way back to him.
Truth 51 We have no memory of our pre-mortal life because we were put here to live by faith and to see if we could obey God's commandments without being in his presence. Our memory will not be restored until we are resurrected. No God's plan not makes Hitler kill millions. That was Satan's plan. God does not cause anyone to be or do evil. The evil man does they do on their own, either by their own volition or because they give into Satan's temptations.
your silly pussy footing as deudy said "must" is an enfordement word and I've said brutus: LDS article of faith: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ,"all mankind may be saved,(should this not read forced to be slaves) by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." Every man and woman ever born regardless of status, religion, nationality, race, or creed will be given the opportunity to receive these blessing and ordinances. If you do not receive them in life then the work will be done for you after you are dead.(if I dont want blessing and ordinances in life, why would I want blessing and ordinances in death) This is done by proxy(( A person authorized to act for another; an agent or substitute.)but if I dont want it,and i dont want someone to act as my agent)in the Temple of the Lord. You will be given ample opportunity in this life or in the spirit world after you die to either accept it or reject it. Those who reject it must remain in the spirit world(this would be fine but you go on to say that you will force people to take the blessing and ordinances and to be slaves) and wait for final judgment were there all will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Christ.(or what, if I refuse your blessing and ordinances what happens) I would be very interested in your churches answer and you said : You already did accept God's plan once or you would not have a body right now.. Before we were born we all lived with God as spirits. He presented his plan for us to come to Earth, obtain a physicle body and return to him if we obey his commandments. He gave us free agency so you can choose to accept him or reject him while on Earth and even in the Spirit world after you die. However there will come a point that you must accept him then you will be reserected and given your final glory. You will then remember your pre-Earth life with God and come to a full understanding of what everything was all about. I said: rubbish, Only in your opinion, but your not answering the question, I put and deundy repeated, your just pussy footing around it, admit it, it's enforced slavery. in you religious book, you have no choice, it's enforced slavery. what you seem not to understand,I dont get the chance to refuse it, do I. so I repeat you have no choice, it's enforced slavery.
we are slaves to gravity and we are slaves to the laws of physics, because we dont have a choice in these matters but we do have a choice when it come s to your god, else I would not be an atheist, would I. but what if I want to be cut of from your god and jesus, can I do this, or do I have to prostrate myself infront of them, as that is enforced slavery.
mustafhakofi and Duendy If you choose to wait till the last instant to do this it will be in front of God and Christ in person. By that time it will be merely acknowledging the obvious.
the obivious being enforced slavery. your still not answering the question I dont want to bow and cower to your god so answer the question is this not enforced slavery.
Mustafhakofi I can see how you might think that given our present condition. We cannot see the big picture. We do not remember who we were before we came here. If we could we would understand, and one day our eyes will be opened and we will all see that this life is but a blip in our eternal progression.
so I take it, you prefer to pussy foot. a straight answer would surfice. dont keep answering in cloud cockoo land. it's not me or deundy who dont understand but you. I'd prefer this blip, anyday to slavery.
I will admit that we are subject to God just like a child is subject to a parent. Just like we are subject to the laws of physics, time, death, and all sorts of limitation inherent in a mortal life. However, God has given us free agency. In this life we can choose to disobey him and not immediately feel the consequences. I do not see a problem with being subject to a perfect God who loves us and wants us to have the joy that he has to offer. Would you want to live in a world with no death, no pain, no conflict, no evil? That is the world that awaits even the worst of us except for those that have earned Outer Darkness. Better to be subject to God and have joy than be subject to Satan and suffer. Or to be subject to what atheists promise. To have no consciousness of life after we die, to not exist at all? It would be as if we never existed in the first place. I choose to be subject to God than oblivion. A slave master does what he does for his own selfish purposes. A slave does not benifit from his own labors. God does what he does for us. Because he loves us and wants us to be happy. Duendy. When it sais "men" and "man" it means all mankind including women so it is not sexist. These things were written before political correctness you know. LDS consider humans to have dominion over the Earth, however God requires us to be good stewards. It is a sin to intentionally harm the Earth. I don't know if it is official church doctrine but many Mormons believe that The Earth has a soul and is itself an intellegent Being. I myself believe this to be. When Christ returns this Earth will go back to the state like it was in the Garden of Eden, and then after a thousand years of peace the Earth will be purifed and become the Celestial Kingdom.
Jenyar These are not my own words but I believe it answers your question quite well. There are other very good answers to other question as well. www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml#man
Brutus, I have met many Mormon missionaries in my life. They like to say, "I hope you will one day accept Christ in your life." Which, in my case, means that I would have to give up what I believe now. So, those people are, in effect saying to me, "I hope you will give up what you believe and accept what I believe". Now how the hell would you feel, Brutus, if someone would say to you "I hope you will give up what you believe and accept what I believe"? Would you like that? Would you call that *love*?
brutus: ]I will admit that we are subject to God just like a child is subject to a parent.it's not my parent, it's like an overseer and the slaves Just like we are subject to the laws of physics, time, death, and all sorts of limitation inherent in a mortal life. However, God has given us free agency.where?, we are forced to knee before this thing In this life we can choose to disobey him and not immediately feel the consequences.why should there be consequences, is'nt it a god of love? I do not see a problem with being subject to a perfect God you might but I and many other do who loves us? and wants us to have the joy that he has to offer.providing we become it's slaves Would you want to live in a world with no death, no pain, no conflict, no evil? of course,providing I dont have to be a slave,and it looks like I would be That is the world that awaits even the worst of us except for those that have earned Outer Darkness.all mankind may be saved, was what you said earlier Better to be subject to God and have joy than be subject to Satan and suffer.better to suffer in hell, then spend eternity as a slave Or to be subject to what atheists promise. atheist promise nothing, we make not such assertions, this unfortunately for you religious are the facts, when you die , you just die theres not glory ,no hereafter and when you religious lot realise this you will hopefully think twice before you kill anybody To have no consciousness of life after we die, to not exist at all? It would be as if we never existed only to the person who died, but to his family and friends they remember him, if hes left his mark, Ie, painted a masterpiece,written plays or books or made his name as a good man, then he's even more known in the first place. I choose to be subject to God than oblivion. A slave master does what he does for his own selfish purposes. A slave does not benifit from his own labors. a slave wearing rags or a slave wearing gold , is still a slave. God does what he does for us. Because he loves us and wants us to be happy.a then he throws us into hell and into the outer darkness, very loving Duendy. When it sais "men" and "man" it means all mankind including women so it is not sexist. These things were written before political correctness you know. LDS consider humans to have dominion over the Earth, however God requires us to be good stewards. It is a sin to intentionally harm the Earth. I don't know if it is official church doctrine but many Mormons believe that The Earth has a soul and is itself an intellegent Being. I myself believe this to be. When Christ returns this Earth will go back to the state like it was in the Garden of Eden, and then after a thousand years of peace the Earth will be purifed and become the Celestial Kingdom.
mustafhakofi Your question has been asked and answered. Just like I said, I am not here to convert you. You are entitled to believe or disbelieve anything you want. That is your right. I just respectfully disagree with you that is all.
Brutus, thanks for the links and quote, but they don't answer my question satisfactorily. For instance, Lindsay addresses Lorenzo Snow's comments: "This controversial passage is clearly applicable to Christ, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God," but this is not what Joseph Smith said: "He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did"He clearly seems to say that God the Father was a man. Lindsay would even say that Christ imitated the Father by becoming a man. This leaves no room for the God of Abraham being Spirit, unless you radically redefine was "spirit" means. Furthermore, Lindsay says: "While He and the Father are the one true God, whom we will always worship, He does want us to become more like the Father (Matt. 5:48) and that possibility is there because of Christ." But Matt. 5:48 says "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." From the preceding verses it is clear that Jesus considers love and obedience to the law as perfection. He does not suggest that we transform ourselves into something we are not already. Psalm 82 follows the same line of reasoning: Ps. 82 "Give fair judgment to the poor and the orphan; uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute. Rescue the poor and helpless; deliver them from the grasp of evil people ... I say, 'You are gods and children of the Most High. But in death you are mere men. You will fall as any prince, for all must die.' "And my biggest problem is with this statement: Our potential is to be spiritually like God, in love and justice (brought on our knowledge of Him), and this is how we must live in relationship with Him. But that is quite different from the 'theosis' defined by the Mormon church. Romans 8:14-18, 2 Peter 1:4-10, 1 John 3:2 are given as proof, but look at what they say: Romans 8:14 ...because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. ...you received the Spirit of sonship. 2 Peter 1 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature... 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 John 3 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. ... 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.According to John we are like God in Spirit--not our spirit, but his Spirit, as is evidenced by Jesus' own words: "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23-24) We are not "the same species" as God. It is only through Jesus that God identifies himself with us, and us with Him. Only Jesus was ever 'pre-existent'.
Well with that idea you sahre the belief of christianity and New Age. it goes like this: Nature in its natrual state now is fallen, and needs the cloming of christ consciousness to purify it, etc this is a very dangerous belief. not only cause it locks you into historical time--ie., WAITING for big-daddy to come and save his 'children, but also because the interpreation of trasnfigured matter can include--especially with New Agers--the idea that radioactivity is part of God's plan to bring 'light' and only those of 'his' children will be able to live through the cataclysm you see, when you poisit a 'good pure he-god. you also deify 'LIFGHT' and denigrate 'Dark', this is revealed in your choice of the ulimate 'no-no'. the 'outer darkness' what the patriarchs most fear Is Darkness. this fear manifests in fear of the Feminine--who the associate with Nature and darkness-fear of dark-skinned peoples, fear of the unconscious, etc....so rather than cow tow to such nonesense, beging learning about this fear of the dark for you cannot YHAVe light with out dark, like you cannot have death without life and life without death this is a wonderful wonderful mystery, but you lot make it as if it is evil and wrong. so you EXPERIENCe it that way, and try and make others do too
Jenyar I am glad you got a chance to read the LDS Faq website. It contains a lot of good information. First your question about the scriptures that refer to the "Spirit of God" or that "God is a spirit". Latter-Day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christian version of the Trinity where God, the son, and the Holy Spirit are three sides of a single entity. We believe they are three distinct individuals that act as one in purpose. When one speaks it is the same as either of them speaking so they can be used interchangeably depending on the context of there usage. So weather we are discussing God the Father, God the son, or God the Holy Spirit they all speak as one. For instants latter-Saints believe that the God of Abraham, and Moses, and In most all cases in the Old testament it was actually Jesus Christ speaking for God the Father. After the fall of Adam we were separated from God the Father so Christ has acted as our intermediary. Little is actually known about the Holy Ghost as far as who he is. We know he is a spirit and his main responsibility is to impress the truth on the hearts of men. It is he who inspires men to believe in God and yearn to return to him. When he speaks to us it is the same as if God the Father himself is speaking to us. As Lindsey pointed out we do not know for sure the "History" of God the Father. He very well could have been a man like us before he was exalted into Godhood. Whether that is the case it is irrelevant to us. He is our God and we do not associate ourselves or have any kind of attachment or communication with other Gods. He will always be our God. Even if we ourselves ascend to Godhood, he will still be our God and we will always worship him as such. In the church there are two types of doctrines. There are the ones you really need to know for your eternal salvation. Then there are some of the deeper ones that even though they are interesting to speculate, they have absolutely no bearing on your standing in the church or your relationship with God. Speculating about where God may or may not have come from is one of the types. Are we the same "species" as God? Yes we are. We are literaly his children, but for now we are in a fallen and primative state. You could say that in our pre-earth life we were like a caterpillar, this life we are in our cocoon, and our potential is to become a beautiful Butterfly. We are going to have to go through a lot of changes before we become like God, but the potential is there. Also a note about the prophets in out church. They are human. We do not claim them to be fallible. There is a difference when they are speaking in the name of God and when they are speaking their own minds. When the prophet speaks in the name of God his words will be canonized by the church and proclaimed as gospel. If he is speaking his own mind then it will not be canonized as doctrine. For instants the Discourses of Brigham Young. Brigham Young had a lot of ideas that Anti-Mormons love to use against the church, but not all of his thoughts in the discourses were canonized because he was not speaking in the name of God when he spoke them. Prophets are not perfect but we have been promised that they will never lead us or the church astray.
