Water I can only respond with the information you choose to give me, and with my own knowledge of missionaries and how they do things. I was once a missionary myself so I know from experience. If you would like you can tell me what happened. If it is too personal for a public forum you can send me a private message.
The works that the LDS church considers scripture are The Bible as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and any official pronouncements from the first presidency and the council of the twelve apostles. Notice I said "official pronouncements" this does not mean that everything the leadership of the church says is doctrine. They can have their own opinions on things, but when they speak directly for God they will say so. We do not believe our church leaders are infallible, but they are inspired and directed by God. "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). LDS Church believes that salvation comes though Jesus Christ Alone. We believe that men and women are saved by grace, but glorified based on our works. As the scriptures say "faith without works is dead". We believe that we teach the same gospel that Christ and the original apostles taught. Through the years men have changed or misinterpreted the original gospel for their own ends. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ’s restored gospel upon the Earth.
Patronizer. My feelings weren't hurt. I am disgusted by the way I was treated. *I* do realize what missionaries are out there doing what they are doing. It is the *missionaries themselves* who don't always know what they are to do, as missionaries. You are trying to absolve them from their promises. If they promise something, then they have to keep it, and I can hold them to their promises. Or, they have to say it out loud and clear that they have changed their mind about their promises. Which they did not do. Don't tell me "they are only human". If they go half way across the globe on their missions, with the idea that they are somehoe better than other people -- and then fail in being professional, I have every right to put that against them. Please tell *them* that! They were so offended when I said that we cannot be friends! They insisted that we are friends, even though we did nothing together. Doing nothing *is* love, according to them. Didn't you know that? I wasn't looking for friends. They imposed themselves on me, saying we were friends. There is nothing to be sorry about.
Water I am not patronizing you. I still don't know exactly what happened, but I don't think the actions of a couple of missionaries or members should impugn the entire church. That is not fair for any organization. Also, are you sure that they were not under the impression that you rejected them? In what context did they say "doing nothing is love" could you please elaborate? You are right not all missionaries know what they are doing. They are 19 year olds. Many are still very immature, but the missionary experience really helps young men to grow. Also water were the missionaries of the opposite sex? While missionaries are out they are not allowed to date or fraternize at all. They are supposed to keep any relationship to the opposite sex at arms length with no hint of romantic involvement. If this was your case then the missionaries were breaking one of their biggest rules. Missionaries get sent home for that.
My view of Mormons: As i told you, mormons live down our road. ie., they are misionaries and they come and go, and their church is a bit further up the min road I sense they are really just business representatives whose main task is to unload mormon bibles ihave invited some in. partly cause they have been horny (hahah....hell here i come), and also cause i seriously wanted to de-cult them, seeing it as a challenge but ALL their passion goes into trying -no matter how much you say you are NOT INTERESTED (which their intelligence MUST have intuited by the very things i was saying!)-to push their bibles on you one time i had a book of my own i said i would lend them. i made a deal with them that i would look at their bible if they read the book i gave them. he promised to return it. i waited...and wiated. eventually i had to actually go to their house to get it back. i found that behaviour unacceptable. really, the ONLY thing they cared about was unloading their bible on me. he'd had no intention of returning my book. #not good manners right. but they will hypocritcally say 'good morning, good evening' though, s as to sell how goody woody mormonism is you also said something the other day Brutus. about how mormons 'used' to think of blacks as having the 'mark of Cain'.........why have you cahnged that opinion? did you get ANOTHEr prophet? or are you just being politically correct what changed that racist view?
But if you consider the Bible (essentially the KJV, isn't it?) insufficient or flawed, why use it at all? Or if it is sufficient, why add to it? Also, your stance on the relative authority of the prophets is problematic. They are believed, aren't they? They are considered authoritive even when speaking "non-officially"; nothing they say will be disputed while they are alive. And Brigham Young disagreed with you: "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p.95)." For instance, at one stage, polygamy was considered a requirement for exaltation, to such an extent that Brigham Young promised you will be damned if you "deny the plurality of wives". But today you can be excommunicated for polygamy. How can church leaders make statements like "Obviously the holy practice [of plural marriage] will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millenium" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 578) in the face of a passage like: Luke 20:34-36 Jesus replied, The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.Who are to be believed, when official doctrine, Bible and apostles all disagree? (The issue here is not polygamy or even "celestial marriage", but authority. If they have authority, they have authority; if they do not, they don't.) For that matter, if Joseph Smith did not stand the test of Deut. 18, why is he still considered a prophet? We could have agreed on that, but I think by "saved" you mean "resurrected", and by "glorified" you mean exaltation by works, which leaves no room for grace -- it is "grace after all you have done". Who wants to be "saved" if he will not be "glorified"? Is God's grace insufficient? We probably both agree that Christ is "the resurrection and the life", but you seem to end Christ's work there. If it were by works, that is where we would take over. Matt.25:31-34 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ... 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.Yes, your works will be weighed, but they cannot save you . They will never cover your guilt. And once it is forgiven, nothing you do can make it more forgiven. It's a question of life or death -- not progression: Ezekiel 33:12-13 Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.Both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith Jr. believed and preached that believing in Jesus and Joseph Smith was necessary for salvation (in a clear elaboration on Romans 10:9). And President Hinckley believes only the LDS church knows who Christ is. Is this your opinion as well? When was the last genuine gospel preached, and when was the first interpolation done? And if the first Christians, who were supervised by Christ's own apostles, could change Jesus' gospel, why not Joseph Smith, who could be supervised by no recognized or recognizable authority?
Similar experience here. I was teaching them the local language and I lent them a cd with folk tales in the native local language, to help them with their studies. One of them told me he's send me the cd, but he didn't, and I had to call several times, each time he promised, but eventually, I had to pick it up myself. Also, at classes, I noticed that they have very little or no respect for other people's possessions. Like once, I brought pictures to practice language with -- describing what's on the picture and making up a story. One of the missionaries, took a picture, wrote on it, and folded it. Without asking anything. And I am to think such people better than me?!
YES! water, me and you are definately exposing something very noticebale here. Exposing their falsness. In dealing with relationships, the TESt for me of spiritual awareness Is sensitivity. so, for example, if someone DOES trust you with their possessions, you do NOT disrespect such trust, as that is offensive. it would be offesnive to the person who has done it too. That is why compassion is so important. compassion is when you deeply feel the other, beCAUSe you have felt deeply yourself. so the more deep you go the more deep you feel for others, and Nature what these cults do is programm the cultists to harden that sensitivity. They then become like robiots whose sole intention is to seel the cult. ANYthing else--like returning books, CARINg for how another individual-who isn't part of the program-FEELS many times when i have been speaking with mormons i get this sense just how robotized they have become. several told me they had been inolved in drugs etc before they joined. wellll, i see it rather like out of the fyin pan and into the fire
Brutus, The threads are here to read the posts in them. You do not need to PM us. PM'ing what you post in threads shows only that YOU DO NOT TRUST US to read the thread. And don't give me any PC crap here, like "I just wanted to make sure you see the answer." Forum members read threads, this is how it works. And you are crossing the line, trying to make something "more personal" -- when in fact you are putting no "more personal" effort into it.
Duendy and Water Yes the missionaries certainly should have respected and returned your belongings. I would say however that it is more of an example of poor parental upbringing and a lack of manners rather than a bad reflection on the Church. To not return what was borrowed is stealing and would be against the teachings of the Church along with a violation of the Ten Commandments. If you reported them to their mission president they would have received a stern talking to and would be expected to apologize to you along with returning the item and/or some kind of compensation if the item was lost or damaged. Water Ok I will not PM you anymore.
no but i dont think it is a case of 'juvenile deliquency' going on here, but rather cultic-conditioning. and i bet if we did a little research amongst various cultic behahiours we might just find a correlation the EXAct same thing happened to me, for example, with Jehovas Witnesses, who ALSO have the raison d'etra for selling their bibles to you. i also had the mosfortune of actually being lecture to by two of them about how sinful my homosexuality was (maybe save this bit for other thread?)....with hindsight i wish i had said 'will you excuse me, just one moment', then gone, filled a buket with cold water and thrown it over the self-righteous fukers. see how they liked THAT. i'm just TOOO good for my own good...hehe..he
Duendy Missionaries do not sell Bibles or Book of Mormons. We give them away freely. Also the word "cult" is very subjective. Every religion at some time or other could fit into the dictionary definition of a cult. Your beliefs in Goddess and nature could also be considered cultic. The real sign of a cult is a group that tries to take away peoples free will. The LDS church is all about free will. We have our commandments but we are not compelled to obey them. We obey them by choice. No one will ever be compelled to worship God. That is not His way. It is only men that seek to take away man's God given freedom to choose right from wrong.
There have been cases of young women forced into arranged and polygymous Mormon marriages against their will. I saw a program about a woman who works to get them out of this cultish situation.
There is an organization called "tapestry against polygamy" They help young women from polygamist families to flee forced marriages and help them to live in the greater society. These polygamist groups are very secretive and reclusive. Old men marry young teenage girls. It really is a sad and sick situation. These are nothing more than sex cults. The leaders of these groups rule over their people with an iron fist. They can very well be campared with the Taliban. They traffic in young girls. I wouldn't be surprised if most the men who get involved with these groups are nothing less than pediphiles perverts disguised as a religion. In the early days of the LDS church we did practice polygamy. In fact I come from a polygamist line on both sides of my family. However the polygamy they practiced back then was nothing like some of these groups practice it today. It was not old men marrying young teenage girls. It was not forced on anyone. If anything it was more of a pioneer necessity to care for women since there were so many more women than men in the church at that time, and the members were isolated in the western frontier. In 1890 the church abandoned the practice and now condemns it.
While it's certainly an interesting cult, mine is better. My god does not punish at all - because he's "all loving". That's it. You don't need to worship at his feet because he's god - he's beyond all that. Nope, all you need do is well.. whatever you want. We all get a nice spot in accordance with our desires, and that's that. End of story. P.S You don't even have to believe in him. He's not quite that vain. Enjoy yourselves.
Snakelord....you are SERIOUSLY turnin me on...makin my toes curl, and givin me a warrrrm gllow. THANKS for that...yu wonderful snakelord you
my only question is, why so many smart, logical people believe LDS? There is no way that any of the tech, animals, peoples in the BoM existed in the Western Hemisphere, can be found or proven, & I am confident that no amount of digging in Mexico, NY or wherever, will ever unearth a BoM artifact (unless its a hoax of course) thats simple, mormonism was made up by a devious little weasel, that made up a "his story", & after people believed him, wanted power, & after he saw how woman swooned over his words, wanted to have as many as possible Read Fawn Brody's, "no man knows my history"
that would be Joe Smith & Brigham Young, no? stop calling Joe Smith names!!! look that up again, I've read that that was just an excuse, that there were some lonely bachelors because all the "Rams" took so many wives had to, other wise it couldn't join the Union
There are many smart logical people in the church because they do not fall for slick anti-Mormon propaganda. Joseph Gerbles was a master at propaganda and he could make Jews look really bad in a very convincing way. He was wrong then and these anti-Mormons are wrong today. On the question of polygamy. There are times in the Bible when God allowed polygamy and times that he did not. Abraham had many wives that were sanctioned by God, along with other prophets. Are you suggesting that Abraham was evil for doing that? God allows polygamy when it is necessary. In the early days of the church in Utah women outnumbered men 3 to 1. Either polygamy was allowed or there would have been a lot of lonely destitute women. In 1890 that was no longer the case. God once again took polygamy from the Earth. If some cataclysm causes men to die off in droves and leaves mostly women in the world then I am sure God would once again sanction it, But until then it is not allowed.
slick? propaganda? all you need is the truth, tell us, how many horses did the Native peoples have before the spanish? where are the jewish people, customs, tech, animals, etc... that supposedly roamed the Western Hemisphere? no himming-n-hawing touche, accuse anyone that questions mormonism as a nazi propagandists, it may work against some, but the truth is just there, mormonism has the fault of being a historic religion, there is all sorts of history, papers, notes, sites about early mormonism, all the history of the natives is coming out through archeology, linguistics & biology. all I ask is that you answer the following points from the past: Any comments?
