************* M*W: This is not true. When I've been there, I don't recall every hearing a police or fire siren. It's a peaceful place. The locals are friendly, and they are used to a lot of tourists. SLC is no police state. It's a place that caters to natural remedies, herbs, alternate health applications, and a healthy lifestyle. The food is wonderful, and you can even get caffeinated drinks, coffee, tea, cokes, etc. liberally in the city. They have an underground mall downtown with the usual grouping of fast food joints. The air is clean, and you can almost get high from the atmosphere. Most of all, they have the world's most reliably available genealogy library, and the Mormon missionaries work there as part of their "mission." You can ask them anything and they will take a personal interest in helping you locate your ancestors, because that is part of their faith. Works for me. Salt Lake City and the rest of Utah is one of the nicest places I have ever been (and I've traveled the world). I've even considered moving there, but for now, I'll visit every chance I can get! It's a really clean and healthy place to be.
The Mountain Meadows massacre. A wagon train from Tennesse was butchered by Saints and their Indian allies. In a particularly cruel twist of fate, the survivng children (8 is the age of reason in Mormon teaching) were adopted by the people who had killed their parents. Although the attack was not committed under the orders of Brigham Young, he eventually offered up one devout Saint as a scapegoat. Jon Krakauer's book, Beyond the Banner of Heaven has a pretty detailed account. I believe it's also mentioned in Mormon America, written by the Ostlings. M*W - if you like the Saints on account of their impressive genealogical library, do you like the Catholics on account of their impressive architecture? Or, to put another way ... you have a problem with what you see as the Pauline bastardization of Christ's life. How is LDS scripture anything but a Smithian bastardization of the Pauline bastardization. I'm curious about the distinction you see between mainline Christianity, which you vehemently hate, as far as I can tell, and its American offshot, which you seem to hold in pretty high regard.
I don't know if there was a mixup here, but I don't see how how your reply followed something I posted. When comparing the two "religions," I was implying that they were both founded on similar premises. Could just be that I'm tired and didn't understand your reply. *shrugs*
Some of those that I had the misfortune to meet. Like my step-grandmother. Or some classmates at school. Even the archbishop in my country made some serious attacks on non-believers. I wish I had the tapescripts of those situations. I know, right now, all the info I can give has the status of hearsay, so it's not very convincing. But if I'll find something, I'll post it.
The theology for the salvation of some non-believers whose non-belief because of the result of ignorance has not been worked out, and we have not been given any sort of divine direction on this matter. I think it's sinful to say to anyone that they will surely go to hell because it is commiting a sin of presumption. I believe what you say but that doesn't make such comments official teachings of the Church.
SOE: MW - if you like the Saints on account of their impressive genealogical library, do you like the Catholics on account of their impressive architecture? ************* M*W: I don't know enough about the LDS religion to have an opinion about what they "believe." Their genealogy library is where my interest lies. And, yes, the RCC does have the most impressive art and architecture in the world. Appreciating the great assets and masterpieces of the world's religions has nothing to do with believing the religion itself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is in the heart of the beholder. Art is the creative force within the sexual nature of our soul. ************* SOE: Or, to put another way ... you have a problem with what you see as the Pauline bastardization of Christ's life. How is LDS scripture anything but a Smithian bastardization of the Pauline bastardization. ************* M*W: Yes, I do have a problem with the Pauline bastardization of Jesus' life. We weren't discussing faith or scripture here. We were discussing the assets and art religions have given us. I haven't studied Mormonism, so I can't say that I believe it or not. From what I've heard about it, I don't believe it to be true. It could very well be a bastardization of Pauline theology. ************* SOE: I'm curious about the distinction you see between mainline Christianity, which you vehemently hate, as far as I can tell, and its American offshot, which you seem to hold in pretty high regard. ************* M*W: As I said, I don't see a distinction, because I don't know enough about Mormonism. I do, however, know about Christianity and Roman Catholicism because I lived it. Since there are no known references about Jesus written during the time he lived, either written by himself or close peers, I find it impossible to see how anyone could believe he was the one true Messiah. These were Paul's words--not Jesus'. No one really knows what Jesus might have said when he was alive--if even that.
M*W - essentially, Joseph Smith claimed an angel, Moroni, gave him several golden tablets, which he translated, thus creating the Book of Mormon. No one else ever saw the tablets. On their way west, he also bought Egyptian papyri, and claimed they validated the Book of Abraham, another portion of the LDS canon, despite the fact that no secular linguist takes the claim remotely seriously. Essentially, take the bullshit surrounding the early Church, but bring it into relatively modern, and better-documented times. In George Carlin's phrasing, it's "stunningly, embarassingly full of shit." The South Park episode does a pretty good job summarizing it. Halycon - I should have said a little more ... essentialyl, while I agree with you that there are certainly similarities between the two, Scientologists seem, as far as I can tell, to be even more lunatic fringe in their behavior than the Mormons, who've become somewhat homogenized.
Funny thing about scientology is it is completely made-up, even more so than Mormonism. Didn't L Ron Hubbard even say that he was just going to make a religion to see if he could? It would be like if Wesism really did take off and become a world wide religion.
Invert- that's almost exactly what happened, but it was more of bet among friends type of thing.... Star- Got it. Can't say much more; I agree with you 100%.
Okinrus, They aren't official teachings of the Church -- but they are what one can encounter in everyday life. A Christian can come to me, condemning me to eternal hell because I don't believe in a Christian God -- and then *I* have to have more tolerance and more understanding and not yell back at him what a selfish idiot he is. In the end, non-believers are expected to be more understanding, more tolerant, more educated about Christianity -- more Christian than the Christians themselves! And this is where the sad irony is.
That would imply that Christ hates Christians since His Spirit of Holiness gives us unction, inspiration... Read all about it: 1 Timothy 3:16
There's very little the Church can do. Although we believe that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I've never heard catholics say to another person they would go to hell. I was accused of having 5,000 demons within me, but I don't think your speaking of Christians-verse-nonchristians but the hypocrisy that some christians portray. Of course, non-christians also can be hypocritical but it is usually not in condemning people to hell.
Hmm ... there's a word missing from my original post. Here's how it should read: If Jews referred to the Gospel writers as venomous liars who incited brainwashing and blasphemy before Jehovah, would you consider that hatred towards Christians?
For anyone who might be interested in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, here's a link I found to <a href ="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadowscontents.htm">Mountain Meadows Massacre by Josiah F. Gibbs</a>. It was written in 1910 and I don't know if it's THE definitive text or not, but it's an interesting read.
No Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Be careful of that J-word, however... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I think you are confusing the two however. Here's a bit of clarification: Code: 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Christians, are therefore Jews. Do you mean to imply that Christians/Jews are inciting "brainawashing and blasphemy" before the very Lord of hosts whom they worship ?
South, you rabidly denounce Joseph Smith while claiming Christians don't hate Mormons. I'm saying, if a Jew were to denounce the Gospel writers, would you say that guy didn't hate Christians? And saying Christians are Jews is fuckin' ludicrous, and you and I both know it.
I only quoted scripture, don't hit me. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So why don't you actually L00K at what I gave? And besides that, didn't I say 'no'??? In case, you continue to have difficulty, I will continue to provide scripture, which this time I hope you will take the time to read: People who denounce Christ (and yet claim to believe in God), are therefore in denial. Is that hate?
South Star, are you saying that you are innocent of hatred because you are merely in denial that mormonism is the true word of god? If denial is all you have, then why the angry words to go with it. It seems to casual third party observers like me that you do indeed hate mormons.
I've known quite a few Mormons, and I'm about as tough on religionists as any of you. Nonetheless, I found that episode of South Park to be pretty accurate. Most of them don't take the mythology too seriously. Most of them really do aspire to having healthy and supportive family relations. Most of them don't proselytize too much once they get past that obligatory missionary age. Most of the ones who actually went overseas on a traditional "mission" were changed more -- for the better -- by what they learned about the world than the people they met were changed by the preaching. I wouldn't want to live in Utah. But then I've liked most of the Jews I've known and I wouldn't want to live in Israel either. It's worth paying attention to something that South Park treats that respectfully!
