"Multiple Universes" is redundant and misleading

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Hesperado, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. jmpet Valued Senior Member

    No- it boils down to INTENT. Do you indend to send someone back in time knowing they will change history and undo their history? How could you fund millions for a time travel experiment that yeilds no measurable results (because success means unmaking the future)? Who would send a time traveler back in time with absolutely no payoff?

    This does not, however, make causuative time travel impossible.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

    That would be the universe composed of a multiverse, what else? :shrug:.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Finally - something with which I can agree!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Correct, I didn't notice what subsection this thread was in and mistook it to be a genuine scientific discussion.

    But on that note, I'll gladly exit and leave it to you and others who wish to spend (waste) however much time you wish squabbling over such trivial semantics.

    And by the way, my interests range MUCH farther than what you've indicated above. I'm a retired researcher who worked in several fields and my interests covered practically everything of a scientific nature - and I still make a strong effort to remain current on practically anything you could name. But I never once wasted a single moment of my professional life arguing over such unimportant things as this subject.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. Gustav Banned Banned


    don't go
    at the very least, give us a physical grounding to our speculations in phil and leave it at that. i find having a scientist in discussions here invaluable. especially when we natter about qm and the like



    please move thread to p&m so it can be subject to the proper level of scrutiny
  8. hardalee Registered Senior Member

    Time travel is said to be possible in a spinning universe where solutions to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity allows "closed time like curves" but our universe does not appear to be spinning.

    Good thing.
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    I appreciate your interest and kind words - really, I do.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    It would be a wasted effort, though, because the majority of people who participate in a thread like this aren't seriously seeking answers, they just enjoy arguing for argument's sake. Trying to get them to change their positions is somewhat like locking a Democrat and Republican in a room and expecting one to "convert" the other to his side. It just isn't worth the time, effort and aggravation involved.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Nothing ever gets resolved.
  10. Pierre-Normand Registered Member

    It is Hesperado, not me, who started this thread. Although I did my undergraduate studies in mathematical physics, my current interests mostly concern philosophical topics.
  11. Hesperado Don't immanentize the eschaton Registered Senior Member

    Yes, a better title would have been "Multiple Universes" is semantic nonsense.
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    One dictionary says "everything that exists anywhere". A physicist might equate that to "all of space and time".

    But when physicists talk about multiple unverses, they mean completely separate pockets of space and time, quite possibly with their own sets of physical laws that may be very different to the ones we are familiar with. Multiple universes cannot be causally connected to one another. They do not share a common notion of time or of space.

    So, our "universe" can happily consist of "everything that exists anywhere" and yet there may still be other universes that have their own set distinct sets of "anywhere".

    I have just explained to you why it is not senseless.

    You learn something new every day.
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    There are other philosophical systems that don't hold time and space as the final last word in establishing "everything that exists anywhere"

    IOW its only a requirement of reductionist thought that a universe be deemed independent from another if there is no causal relationship of time and space (since reductionist thought holds all things accountable to time and space)
  14. Hesperado Don't immanentize the eschaton Registered Senior Member

    Perhaps the "anywhere" you can get away with; but not the "everything".

    "Everything" means everything, not less than everything.
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    I can't see any reason to labour the point, so I'm stopping here.
  16. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

    Word play.

    Typical of liberal arts majors, who think the map is the territory.
  17. Telemachus Rex Protesting Mod Stupidity Registered Senior Member

    When you say "properly speaking" I think you focus too heavily on the original understanding /etymology of the word "universe", rather than on its modern meaning which is, "everything within the spacetime continuum in which we reside."

    It's much like the meaning of the word "decimate" *used to be* "to destroy one-tenth of a thing" (hence the "deci-" in "decimate"). Now, it is perfectly acceptable to use it to mean "to destroy *a large percentage* of a thing" and dictionaries reflect that as one valid definition for the word.

    Etymologically speaking, an "atom" was a particle that could not be broken down into smaller particles, from "atomos" meaning "indivisible". Now, we have split the atom, discovered "subatomic particles" but the original name remains intact.
  18. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    One point that tends to get misrepresented is the notion that "creating a parallel" requires a universes worth of energy to do. Now this is correct if you are creating an exact duplicate from scratch, however I'm pretty sure it's works a little differently.

    The big bang wouldn't be the creation of one universe, it is "a start" and because it's a beginning, it's shared by all parallels of a multiverse. Initially they will all be absolutely identitical, this is because to begin with they are all sublayers of a whole.

    When it gets to a point that a paradox is created by bridging these sublayers, the universe that is different from the majority splinters of on a tangent.

    A hypothetical is that if this new universe occupied a space next door to the universe in which we exist, that volume of space wouldn't suddenly be populated by that universe at the point the bridge is made, instead that spacial volume would actually have the exact same history that the original volume would have. Which means up to the point of that bridge there would be an exact duplicate.

    (This is a simplified subset of Emulator theory, as the suggestion is that the whole universe [a "Container" if you will] has been populated by an infinite number of emulated volumes, that would have all been the same had it not been for a paradoxical bridge method for communicating different commands to each emulator.)
  19. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Not sure that you are right on that one.
    It does fit in with some mathematical theories.

    I must admit that when I hear the words, I become unreasonably angry.
    I think it's because the intensely annoying Michio Kaku is always barfing on about it.
  20. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Word play.

    Typical of natural sciences majors, who think the map is the territory.
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    There aren't that many options:

    We either agree that there is one perspective to look at the Universe; and when our observations don't make sense, we posit there are numerous Universes.
    Or we agree that there is one Universe to look at from numerous perspectives; and when our observations don't make sense, we posit there are numerous perspectives.

    There are advantages and disadvanatages to each option.
  22. Hesperado Don't immanentize the eschaton Registered Senior Member

    Telemachus Rex, Stryder, and Signal:

    I suppose there may be an argument for the linguistic evolution of the word "universe" where the modern Western natural scientists may co-opt the term for the rest of us.

    If conceded, I then move on to my next point and query: are modern Western natural scientists willing to posit a Whole (or an All or an Everything or a Totality -- to clarify needlessly with more synonyms) of which all these multiple universes are a part?

    And even more interesting than that question is: Why aren't they trying to unify this Whole? That should keep Stephen Hawking's wheels spinning.

    Oh, but I know what will happen. Hawking will propose an elaborate Unification Theory of the Whole that includes all Multiple Universes -- and then he will discover Multiple Wholes (with more holes than Swiss cheese; but that's another story).
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

    That makes sense.

    Of course it implies more than one universe. The term means "multiple universes" and includes the real, tangible universe (i.e. all existing, observable space and time) and other theoretical universes that do not have measurable existence.

Share This Page