"My Ignorance is as Good as Your Knowledge" --Asimov

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by danshawen, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    A lot has changed since the first time our Constitution failed us. I think breaking up would be a bad idea too, but not worth fighting a war like that again.

    It wasn't simply a failing of Christian values that caused our civil war. Many Jews living in the red states owned slaves too, and you would think the values in their Torahs would have taught them better. Perhaps that was because so many of the 613 commandments (only 10 of which made it into the other Abramic religions) dealt largely with the treatment of slaves. Note also, G-d punished both the Hebrew slaves and slave owners, which sends a mixed signal, doesn't it? Which group was more at fault, morally?

    Don't depend too heavily on moral guidance from religion or religious scriptures to derive all of your moral values. Anything written with symbols as tools for finite minds is apt to have a great deal of incomplete or inconsistent moral instruction, as flawed as we are.

    The rule of law replacing the whims and limitations of a human monarch is probably the best thing, other than literacy, that derived of these religious traditions. Someone please tell this to Trump and especially Ergodan. I suppose too many Turks are still nostalgic about Ataturk, but most Americans are not nostalgic about either King George or Fidel Castro.

    Notice that the same moral values were in play both for England's American colonies, and the totalitarian Marxist regime of Cuba. Our neighbor still isn't free. Checks and balances between branches of government, and separation of church and state are both excellent values our current president seems not to share or realize, he has sworn an oath to uphold. He went so far as to appoint a stinking Marxist and a survivalist as a top adviser. There's a special kind of stupid there. Marx might have been a friend to Lincoln, but even Jefferson Davis would have known better.

    Perhaps our constitution should have stipulated a civil service test with a section on constitutional governance for presidents and politicians before taking that oath. Ignorance of the law or the values underlying the laws they are sworn to uphold should be a disqualification to any appointed or elected office. Choosing to ignore so important a value is another bad idea.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,488
    I vaguely remember reading one [1] of his books of essays where he touched on this and the point he was trying to make was that the anti-intellectuals in question regard(ed) their ignorance on specific subjects sufficient to qualify them to make pronunciations on that subject with exactly the same authority as Asimov (or anyone else who genuinely has the knowledge) because (American) society is democratic.
    I.e. the attitude that we're all equal under the law therefore your education doesn't make your informed and considered statements any more valid than my uninformed just-pulled-out-my-arse opinions.
    That a sense of entitlement (engendered by a false interpretation of what democracy means) leads to the (utterly spurious) conclusion that even though "I'm" pig-ignorant "I'm" as equally qualified to expound on topics "I" know nothing about as someone who's put in the effort to get an education.

    That same attitude is just as evident in a large number of posts on this forum [2] or in people like Vani Hari.

    1 Actually I think I've read most, if not all, of them - but you know what I mean.
    2 No names mentioned, of course.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    That's me but I value the opinion of educated people, and I do not deny the fact an expert knows more than me.
    Folks all like to express their opinion but they can fail when they believe because they have given some little thought they have an idea superior to those who have spend a lifetime working specifically in that field.

    Two ears one mouth...there is a reason...a hint that should proportion their use...another silly saying but sometimes silly people grasp the point better from a saying.

    Alex
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    I like the idea of communism except for the necessity of a revolution and that humans are still in charge.

    It could work if computers ran the show.

    It is one of those ideas that seems good over a coffee but just does not work in practice.

    But as to humanity its stupidity etc we must remember we have not been around all that long and no doubt we will improve.

    Alex
     
    danshawen likes this.
  8. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    That is an original and an interesting idea; using computers to mitigate the possibility of governmental corruption. But you run up against the limitations of symbolic language capturing the whole truth about government. I wouldn't vote for anything like full machine autonomy in that application.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    T
    The problem with most systems designed to redistribute wealth is they don't, and communism fails here.
    I think George Orwell's book animal farm, although simple, hits the nail on the head, some will currently want more.

    A market economy seems to manage demand and needs better however maybe computers could achieve a better result... You would need a very good program to monitor stock etc.
    But I don't know about politics or economics but of course I have an opinion but the sence to realise the games upon which I comment are best left to experts.
    Alex
     
    danshawen likes this.
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    Thinking more we have that now.
    Alex
     
  11. danshawen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,942
    Not at all. Your own values are every bit as as good as "experts", at least in terms of the resources necessary to your own survival. Depending on another individual to decide values for you is what is risky. This is why Isaac's manifesto is of so much importance, I decided it needed its own discussion thread in general philosophy.

    We live in a very wealthy universe. Whole planets the size of Jupiter exist that are solid quadrillion carat diamonds, and sizeable asteroids exist containing more gold than the contents of Fort Knox at peak gold production. Just because an oil company stakes a claim and funds the equipment to extract oil doesn't mean they have any "real" right to ownership, other than distribution rights for whatever their resources and holdings they use to extract and refine fuel. They only do all of that because we value the result, perhaps use the fuel to feed and warm ourselves, yes? Without consumers, oil and petrolium company holdings consist of a great amount of toxic and flammable crud. Values are everything. Knowledge that does not contribute in a direct way to survival has no value to anyone.

    What things should we value in a government that we no longer seem to have?
     
  12. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,488
    They are?
    An anti-vaxxer's values are "just as good" as the scientific establishment?
    The GW sceptics' opinion is as justifiable as those of climatologists'?

    "Knowledge that does not contribute in a direct way to survival has no value to anyone."
    Here's the crux.
    The attitude "I haven't studied it but my view should be given at least as much weight as yours" may start with things that are purely personal - but how do you stop them expanding into issues that have an impact on the survival of all of us?
     
    danshawen likes this.
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    I that regard I agree.
    My first year as a real estate salesman I survived 80 other sales people.
    We were trained not to waste time with folk whereas I took my time and in time took over the office and those managers left the industry.

    Small potatoes.

    I did most everything differently.

    Was laughed at for carrying a brick phone and getting a fancy computer.
    So my survival left me as the expert.

    I often think about value of things.
    And I wonder would money hold value if everyone had a surplus.

    If an lump of diamonds fell out of the sky they probably would devalue the diamond market.

    Supply and demand the fundamental behind value.


    As to the gold in Fort Knox I often wonder if it is still there.

    Alex
     
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    Their values will see their number drop off as they die off.
    Alex
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    I am not trying to go against the tide but sometimes an outsider can come along and offer a better way of doing things ... You know and beat the "well we have always done it that way" approach.
    Alex
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,622
    Problem is they don't die off; the more susceptible members of the population (the elderly, children and the immunodeficient) do.
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,622
    "On that train of graphite and glitter
    Undersea by rail
    Ninety minutes from New York to Paris
    More leisure for artists everywhere

    Just machines to make big decisions
    Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision
    We'll be clean when their work is done
    We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young

    What a beautiful world this will be
    What a glorious time to be free"

    -Donald Fagen, IGY
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  18. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,488
    That's not in dispute and it's not Asimov's point though.
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    Thank you for putting me straight.
    Alex
     
  20. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    I agree

    But the problem is they might take none deserving kids with them

    Sorry

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    Agree

    So why do, to return to the anti-vaxxer's for a moment, not want their children vaccinated?

    Oh that's right

    my ignorance matches your knowledge

    The unjustifiable concern over autism takes centre stage here

    Another bone of contention

    Why do so many oppose

    ' test tube babies '?

    Yes ' we've always done it the sex way '

    Nothing against that and I would not like to see a romp in bed replaced with a mixing in a petri dish

    But the old way does not work every time and the dish option has an advantage for eliminating some defects and diseases

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,919
    I used to live in the area where tarot card reading, crystal power and alternate medicine were not considered alternate.

    Don't get me wrong I would be out of the city and back there if I could the sky is dark the trees are tall and my river is clear....but.

    I have experienced it face to face.

    My tarot reading mate, friendship now finished, eats meat raw so as to gain the life force which would be lost by cooking...he won't drink the poison that is milk from the shop but gets his straight from the cow, ...but he sneeks his chocolate biscuits.

    Anti VAX etc. many are. There is no hope they know.

    And some of these folk are injecting drug addicts... Could your heroine or speed or whatever be contaminated?
    They all know cutting (mixing a drug with something to increase volume and profit on resale) is routine.
    But antivax...when do we stop banging our heads on the wall...forget them.

    The kids, well my experience tells me, they grow up move away and generally become very normal and decent people.

    In small communities they can work out the nonsence, they see the declines thru booze and addiction.

    Maybe my experience has left me hardened to belief systems in general...you must have had face to face experience with the type I refer to...you will not can not change them.
    You can't generalise but realise some think there are planes flying over spraying them with whatever...who knows what some of them think.

    Alex
     
    danshawen likes this.
  23. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,926
    Yes

    Which leads to another facet about Dr Philly

    I wonder what his success rate is?

    And

    If all the effort put into those success, and by extension, the failures

    was put into assisting those who are doing the ' right ' things

    would that not be effort better spent?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    danshawen likes this.

Share This Page