ubermich, I should warn you that there is no point to debating with Truthseeker/Nelson. He will twist your words. He will twist the meanings of common english words. He will make up words. He will insult. He will complain. He will explain that zero is infinite. I used to try to debate him. Then I realized how much sounder an investment a riding crop makes. If you are on a budget, try bashing your head against a wall. BTW, if he misunderstands Descartes, don't be suprised. He's never read Descartes. He does not have the most basic grasp of Descartes. He has no idea what either the Spiral of Doubt or the Provisional Morality are.
Right of Defense... ubermich, Originally posted by Xev... Attacking me again... Do I attack you, btw...??:bugeye: I will eventually misinterpret you. Unfortunatly I'm a human being, I'm not perfect, and I might make some mistakes... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I will use metaphors and other figures of speech. She doesn't know this kind of thing, as you might see... I'm creative... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sometimes I try to import a word from my language... Well... that's how many languages came into being... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Her post is already an insult against me. I don't insult. I don't need to attack anyone to defend myself. I have the right of freedom of speech. For example, you can see many posts written by (Q) where he tries to get me out of sciforums. Should I complain about that? And prove it. However, it won't be accepted as it will destroy the basis of their security.
to nelson: ill address our philosophical debate, then some personal issues on you (nonoffensive), so hold on even this bores you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! i think part of the problem is that you're using synonyms to describe one phenomenon. that might work if your point is to diversify your writing style, but not when you're making fundamental distinctions between very similar notions. ie, dont say "we create our beliefs, which control our thoughts," say "we use logic, which contrls our thoughts." be consistent semantically, otherwise i think theres a circle in your argument when you say "we create our beliefs which control our thoughts," then turn around and say "thought=bottles=with logic and reason = lies, beliefs." and i know there isn't outside of the linguistic confusion, though, i still disagree. your "pre-thought" MUST rely on sensory experience, which is foible, unless youre advocating innate ideas. but even kant cleared that up when he established the basic innate ideas to be epistemological "categories" through which we learn. basically, he said these innate ideas are nothing without experience, and with regards to any ultimate truth, that truth then must pass through our experience, which filters it. fundamentally, even your pre-thought is distorted. but that's kinda beside the point, i see youre focusing on language here, just dont idealize "pre-thought" as an endgoal or anything. as an example though, consider this: even your pre-thought, nelson, must rely on assumptive experience to intuit the atom and then bound it in a causal relationship that composes matter. we cant directly "experience" the atom, we just "know" about it through logical, scientific observation. now for the personal stuff: let me say i think youre a nice guy, nelson. i couldnt stand to have several ongoing philosophical debates with you, but i think youre a great guy, with a polite, well-mannered heart. yes, you do have the right to be here. don't let anyone, xev or q, push you away from this place. for example, i like xev. i think she's very knowledgeable on philosophy, a biblical encyclopedia (god only knows why), witty, and she's the only one on sciforums with an avatar of a hot workout chick, presumably from the eighties, in one of those kinky, suggestive spandex getups. but thats beside the point. she was kind of mean to you in that last post, im sure with a reasonable cause. but just because she has a problem with you doesn't mean you should leave or anything. is that what this is about?: dont leave just because people are abrasive, or they misunderstand you. theres a lot of good people here with things to say. some are dogmatic and fucktarded, but good nonetheless. i think its worth your while to try and understand them. at the very least, look at it this way: get inside peoples heads and figure out why they hate you, then you can either change or exploit that. as a religious person, you might think that sounds unethical or downright sick, but thats only my negative twist on an otherwise quite valid suggestion:knowing the essence of man, what makes him tick, so as to use better relate to him. try to communicate with people: dont speak in metaphors if it pisses them off, or, speak in metaphors if you do want to piss them off. trust me, getting to know people is the one thing you need to know in life, and this is the perfect place to do it. if youre leaving because youre computers getting taken away or something, then ignore everything i just said. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! but whatever you decide to do, my blessings go out to you. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Xev, About the philosophical debate... I didn't mean that the "pre-thoughts" were something related to experience. Experience also passes through judgement. A simple example: If a child tries to put his/her hand in the fire and the mom is there, two thing might happen The mom might hit the child telling him/her not to touch the fire. The child develop a fear for his/her mother because she hit him/her. The mom tell him/her not to touch the fire, but do nothing to prevent it. The child touch the fire and burn his/her hand. The child learn not to touch the fire. The child might develop a fear for fire. This shows how a single action can completly change our perspective about two different things. It is through experience, both are right, but none of them is THE ultimate Truth, even though it contains it. Experience is no different then beliefs, thoughts, words and so on. It is true that logic and reason order things, but they also come through experience. "Pre-thoughts" are something like... a hidden universe (metaphor...) of meaning. Every single though might have the same pre-though, which is narrowed by the logic of the words. About the personal issues... You could have posted it in my Goodbye thread... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That's ok... but I usually prefer to analize the actions and reactions of people... instead of their thoughts. I can't do this here, unfortunatly. The reason I'm getting out here is that my computer at home is too slow, and I have to write too many posts. I still have patience to continue discussing with some people here, but I can't continue to try to pass a message that some people can't understand... Thanks Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You are cool too... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You should post those things in my Goodbye Thread... Tyler still attacks me there... Anyways... See ya! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I still attack you? Are you joshin me here Nelson? I state my opinion and my view and you call it an attack? Anywho............. I THINK I GET IT!!!!!!!! NELSON!!!!!!!! I THINK YOU FINALLY PUT YOUR PHILOSOPHY INTO UNDERSTANDABLE ENGLISH!!!!!!!!! And it all goes back to our very first conversation (ahhhh, memories). Nelson, this quote has lead me to think I understand you finally; "Every single though might have the same pre-though, which is narrowed by the logic of the words" What you're saying is that every human's inner child (I hate that term, oh god I hate that term. Some pathetic little neopsych term that pisses me off) or base personality is linked? First off, in our original conversation both myself and Cris illustrated to you how a personality is the affect of chemical make up and life experiences. You said no, it must be more, therefore there is such a thing as a spirit. Holy shit, Nelson you haven't changed one bit since our first conversation! So you think every spirit is linked by the Truth, right? Nelson!!!!! Do you want to know why it seems that every person shares some kind of connection? Because we're all basically made up the same way!!!! We all have a similar make up!!!!! That's all it is Nelson!!!! Ahhhhhhh. Hell, I know there's no chance of me convincing you that science is right. But I'm just happy to have finally realized that nothing has changed since our first conversation!
Another nice thread hijacked by the trio! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! procyon: Why? Isn't experience a better teacher?
so you're not leaving nelson? you'll still logon from brazil? well, have a nice flight then. yes, tyler. i went through the same type of epiphany earlier, and you realize that its all for nothing. a lot of this confusion would be avoided if you stopped waxing poetic nelson. you really CANNOT use "belief" and "thought" interchangeably when you're making a hierarchichal distinction between the two. as for inner child, i think that terms quite amusing. i loved how fight club kinda subtly satirized it (and all that other pop-psych bullshit) with that whole inner animal/cave thing. now that i understand you nelson: just answer me one question: what makes you so sure this common Truth exists if all of our beliefs/thoughts/logic (the way we know the world) are limited and flawed? just your blind faith?
You finally got it Tyler!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yeah... it is always like that... when I got pissed of to the point where I'm leaving, something happens and changes everything... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It was the exact same with Melissa... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Anyways... I hope I continue posting... then we could discuss it... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Could you do me a favor? Could you make a thread explaining it? It would be nice, because my English is not that good... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And as you got it... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sorry if I got a little pissed off... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ubermich, The universe is too ordered. If there is no common Truth, it just don't make sense how it can be so ordered. Besides that, I went through knowledge and tried to transcend it. I got to a point where I couldn't explain things with words anymore. Therefore, I got "somewhere" probably out of my mind (because mind uses logic and words...) which I believe is the spirit world the Religions talk about. I also understood why Taoists say that the Truth cannot be transmitted (and I already told you, because it is beyond the logic of the words...). I see it as if our perspective of the world was like a fog and the Truth is the world without this fog. People judge everything around, thus limiting their perspective, their visibility of the Truth. With no judgement, there is no fog anymore and the Truth appears clearly, you see the world without the fog. That's what I'm trying to do. First I need to create the awareness in people (in my ex-girlfriend it is pretty hard, as she is Christian... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ). Then, after that, a little explanation about the surroundings and then, I can do nothing anyomre, since my judgement will be required. Every person has a path, and I can't make their paths, only they can. See ya Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
