Natural selection past the reproductive age

John, I gave you a definition of altruism and you don't agree with it. That doesn't mean you can continue to ride your shadow definition; you're gonna have to explain what you mean when you use the word. When you say things like:

- you're being a nerd. Being stung by a bee is not an altruistic action because it's not an action. I don't want to go into the whole acting/allowing argument here, and it's not necessary to do so because I think we can all agree on what an action is.

So, what's your definition of altruism?

 

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I have given a definition countless times I thought. Here, I'll give it again:

An altruistic act would one which benefits other individuals while not benefiting or even hindering the benefactor

Don't call me a nerd u twat.

Who used that example?

 

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You used that example: you said "And there are a lot of things in the wild which do not improve personal fitness", without any clarification of what "things" were. Did you mean "there are a lot of actions taken by organisms in the wild which do not improve personal fitness"?

In view of the concept of genetic propagation and evolution, your definition of altruism is woefully incomplete and this shows up in your discussion points. I think most people came to this discussion believing that "parent cares for child" is not an altruistic action, since ultimately the parent does benefit from the care that they provide to the child.

 

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Yes, thats what I meant

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It is not incomplete because genetic propogation has nothing to do with benefits for the individual. There simply is no benefit there. Instead of being incomplete, your theory is in fact just plain wrong as far as I can see.

I knew that and I wanted them to think about that defiition a bit more. Is it really right?

I'm afraid not. It doesn't. If u disagree then jus tell me how it benefits.

 

why is altruism not countered by anti-altruism?

 

Because anti-altruism can never get a foothold over altruism in the genetic pool due to the inclusive fitness effect of most altruistic acts.

Antialtruism DOES exist on its own but it won't get rid of altruism

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This is BS. Why do organisms reproduce if it doesn't benefit them?

If you don't believe in the continuity of a species as a benefit to its members, then no living thing should reproduce, as this only produces unneeded competition for them. Then altruism can be defined as "any action toward a conspecific that involves not killing them". I don't think this is a fruitful line of logic.

 

I'm sorry to have to break it to ya!

Ahh, u finally asked a good question that should get to the heart of the matter. U (along with everyone else) were taking a self-centered view of nature. Survival of the individual is not the ultimate goal in life. Reproduction does not benefit organisms but we still do it. Can u guess why yet?

Continuity of a species is quite important. More imortant is continuity of life. Hence evolution. Nature doesn't give a shit if a species survives or not.

Huh?

 

Because one's fitness is increased (enhanced) when our relative genetic representation in the population is increased. An increase in fitness is a benefit. Therefore the altruistic traits are not really altruistic in the most literal sense.

 

Gee, I dunno John... is it cuz u and eye gots totally different definitions of the word "benefit"? Hurr hurr hurr.

Maybe, since Survival of the individual is not the ultimate goal in life, a statement from which we can interpolate that reproduction is 'cause that's the only other thing we're talking about, we could stretch our minds far enough to believe that managing to reproduce could be considered, in fact, in the fullness of time, at the end of the day, taking all things into consideration, to be a BENEFIT.

"Nature" doesn't divide things into species at all. In fact, "Nature" doesn't do anything. And please tell me that your "hence evolution" statement here is not a post hoc rationalization of the purpose of evolution...

 

One's fitness is NOT a benefit to the organism however. At least not in my mind. The organism is till going to die so how could it be? In fact the act of reproducing ensures he dies quicker!

 

No, as I've explained to Paul in the post above, reproduction is actually an expense to life. There are even some animals which die immediately after reproducing. This cannot be a benefit to the individual. It just smacks u in the face with its obviousness

What I meant by "hence evolution" is that nature does not strive to keep one species going like u were implying earlier. Species will come and go and its not imortant that a species survives to anyone (even an individual).

 

It appears you have a good grasp of the concept of altruism as it pertains to behavioural ecology.

Which is why a suicide gene could not evolve in a population except under the four conditions cited above.

Yes, this is 'manipulation,' number three in the list I provided based on the outline in the Krebs and Davies text.

 

This is ridiculous! The passing on of one's genetic material (i.e. one's fitness) is the ONLY critereum by which to measure benefit.

Bullcrap! Name them.

Manipulating definitions to force them to match natural phenomena is not science.

 

Does it? Okay, I'm going to give you two options:
1) Inherit the ability to reproduce, exist.
2) Don't inherit the ability to reproduce, don't exist.

In general you exist because you are descended from reproducing things. Some hybrids can't reproduce, and may they lead great lives; most of us, along with our existence, unstoppably inherit reproductive ability and tendencies.

So if you consider getting to live instead of not getting to live to be a benefit, then inheriting the propensity to reproduce appears to have benefit.

As for creatures that die after they reproduce: who cares? This is a strategy that they have adapted to employ, which they need not have done - nothing stops a new strain of salmon from evolving who spawn and then live, and either come back next year to have more babies, or maybe just while away their twilight years swimming the ocean currents. You're generalizing examples from specific organisms to all organisms, which is usually a big mistake.

 

You were either taught wrong, or you didn't understand what was attempted to be taught to you.

You absolutely are. Read the reference I provided.

You will sound puerile if someone tells you something, like, "It's raining. Put on your slicker," and you disagree without bothering to check saying, "It's NOT!" and you leave anyway in the rain.
You know, puerile, like a two-year-old.

It means what it always meant.

 

This is NOT BBH's theory. This is basic evolutionary theory, which you appear not to understand, which is why you don't understand altruism, inclusive fitness and behavioural ecology. We are speaking at 2 different levels, and I'm afraid you will never understand what we are discussing unless you get some background education in evolution. Please don't be offended, this is not a criticism. One can't know everything. I know very little of economic theory, but then again I would not go into the economics forum and start telling the economists that Keynesian economics is all wrong.

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well, maybe I would.

In evolutionary theory, benefits to individual orgainisms are those things or traits that increase one's fitness, i.e. the ability to increase one's relative ability to get their genes into the next generation. All traits that evolve that will do this, will be selected for, any that don't or do the reverse, will be selected against.

The problem was that we biologists saw natural phenomena that appeared altruistic. We came up with hypotheses that would explain the evolution of altruistic traits, then we tested them. The results are summarized in the reference I provided many posts ago, which can be further summarized in the list of four things that can explain the evolution of altruism. Of course, the model organisms are the eusocial ones, in which a large proportion of the population actively forgo reproduction to help a single member of the population to reproduce, i.e. bees and ants.

The first thing you need to do John, is accept that you've misunderstood the concepts. Then, if you're still interested, you can begin to learn what altruism and kin selection tell us about nature and the world we live in. However, the posturing and egotism need to stop. You'll need to accept that there are some people who know more about this subject than you.

 

Not getting to live is not a benefit or a disadvantage. Ur not here so who cares. We're talking about benefits to an individual while it is alive.

I'm not generalising. Reproduction reduces the ability of an individual to survive longer. It is a documented case in almost all animals. To the individual it is a needless expenditure of energy it worked so hard to get. However its fun. thats why individuals are compelled to do it.

 

The only thing I am having a problem with is your definition of altruism. I understand the rest.

Just because I am arguing your definition of altruism (or what u claim is the accepted version) does not mean u know more than me. I really don't think u are speaking on a different level to me and I've no idea where u got that from.

OK then if that is the case and accepted definition of benefits and altruism then u are right. There is no true altruism just apparent altruism. However take a look at it from the viewpoint of an individual. If reproduction reduces longevity then can it seem like a benefit to them? Think of it in the way that we are merely tools (carriers) for our genes. This is what i was taught. In that case the accepted definition seems absurd. A much better definition would have an individual having its own goals but ultimately being controlled by the goals of your genes.

Its ok Paul, I've known this stuff for years

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I accept the definition biologists take but I don't like it. Unless u can prove to me why it is a good definition. That would be great!

Again I've known it for years.

U can't conclude u know more about the whole subject than me just because I am arguing against the held definition of altruism.

 

So, what's a benefit John? Genetic transmissions's out according to you. Since reproduction is pleasurable, pleasure's gone out the window as benefit. Existence is apparently to be taken for granted and cannot be appreciated. What is left?

Look, you are generalizing. At the most basic level, bacteria gain vast fitness benefits by reproducing, since their little offspring create biofilms that protect the entire colony from dangerous chemicals.

Ants and bees reproduce, even if it's largely vicarious; in terms of your measures here, not a single member of an ant colony benefits in any way from its labour. The females work day and night, their energy expenditure equalling their intake almost exactly. The males are born, breed, and die. The queen does nothing but reproduce. The story of the hive is the story of torture. Apparently.

Furthermore, you said "there are even some animals that die after reproducing," not "slight energy penalties are levied by reproduction that may increase to large penalties in the case of certain organisms". The fact that some organisms adopt this strategy doesn't mean anything about reproduction.

Furthermore I dispute that "It is a documented case in almost all animals."

Male scorpionflies make food offerings to females when they mate, which helps to offset the "energy cost".

Certain kinds of male katydids permit the female to drink nutritious fluids from specialized glands on their backs under similar circumstances.

Mormon crickets have a large, sticky, edible spermatophore that they transfer to the female; it's thought that the time she spends eating it gives the sperm time to fertilize her eggs, but no matter.

In these cases, mating several times will increase the individual fitness of the female organism.