# New bladeless wind mahine promisse much lower capital cost / kwh capacity

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Billy T, Jun 11, 2015.

1. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Near mid point and end of first video is some English and close up of the generator. At end is all English video,

Last edited: Jun 11, 2015

3. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Wind is solar energy, but it can be 24/7 at well chosen locations. I think the first still photo at this link will let you understand how EM induction voltages are induced by vibration, instead of rotations.
Note the gap between the vertical magnet pole pieces changes to make the dB/dt in the coils.

I don't know why, but none of the still photos I've found will copy here.

Last edited: Jun 12, 2015

5. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Cost less than half as much to make per peak watt output capacity.

Cost ~80% less to maintain - no friction wear & nothing to oil.

It kills no birds and is much easier to deliver to site and easier to set up as low weight and generator is near the ground. Much less costly foundation.
The carbon fiber central rod does flex slightly. - Fatigue life is between 32 & 96 years, by analysis.
It is 30% less efficient than wind power with blade machine, but several times more can be in same area.
I.e. about 300% more efficient use of the land, which you pay for, and as you don't pay for the wind, it is the land efficiency which is economically important!

What does a 4Kw solar array cost? Directs solar power produces much less on average than the peak (none at night, but the wind can still blow then.)
It is very compatible with solar cell array too.

Even "crowd funding" information. It is demonstrated in the field technology. See first video of post 1.
They claim that they are going to change the world - perhaps they will?

Last edited: Jun 16, 2015

7. ### KittamaruAshes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums.Valued Senior Member

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I love how an array that can power an average house in Spain and an entire VILLAGE in India... is only good for half a house in the US... if nothing else, that SHOULD say something about our power usage... I think it's high time we start using a bit less, savvy?

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8. ### danshawenValued Senior Member

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A friend who owns a home local to mine pays much more for electricity (mostly heating and A/C) than I do. One problem is that her larger home is dimly lit throughout with incandescent (filament) bulbs and she leaves many of them on at night continuously in areas of the house that are unoccupied most of the time. When I tried to convince her to convert her lighting to compact fluorescent and/or LED, she roundly ignored my suggestion. Why would someone not care to cut the cost of lighting their home to 1/3, and with better lighting as well? Why would they not wish to cut maintenance in terms of replacing bulbs every few months to several years? That's money she is bleeding. Guess some folks just don't have the thrifty gene. Go figure.

Because the wind energy harnessing devices shown in the video could be made to be much more efficient with a simple electromechanical modification, I don't see them as a major player in wind energy technology any time soon. Open core magnet/transformer arrangements as shown are less than 50% efficient compared to closed core designs, which are in excess of 90% efficient. You could easily do a whole house instead of half. But the concept is good. In fact, it is really good. Well worth thinking about.

I like the fact that this design seems relatively safe for any passing birds compared to those huge moving wind turbines. Thanks.

Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
9. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Yes all magnetic transformers that are made use closed low hysterias loop loss cores. Even just a "filter choke" inductance does too.

At RF frequencies, often only air is the core when significant power is being handled. - (I used such to match better a center feed antennae* to my transmitter.)

However if converting motion into electric power, it is essentially impossible not to have some small "air gap clearance space." I don't know the design of their magnetic loops, but assume that they are loops, with small air gaps, not just the straight pole pieces you can see in their photos. Too many knowledgeable people are working on this to have not know long air gaps destroy the field intensity.

* Typically that antenna present about a 72ohm load, but the "tank circuit" of last stage of RF power tube needs much higher impedance. I don't know anything about transmitters using transistors. Perhaps they don't need an impedance matching transformer?

BTW, I worked as vacation replacement for the adult engineers as was able to pass the FCC's tough four hour exam and get a First Class Commercial license - required back then. There was a large un-used filter choke from old power supply. If a single 1.5V "type D" battery was short circuited thru it for a few seconds, and that circuit then broken a spark several inches long was produced - You had to use great care when doing this to not kill your self as you are a better conductor than the air. Few would believe a "D-cell" battery can kill you, but it can.

Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
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10. ### danshawenValued Senior Member

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Ferrofluids are one way to close the flux loop in a transformer without the usual mechanical constraints.

You could also leave the magnet stationary and move the coil (and this design has the advantage that it moves coils/magnets very slightly).

I'm a long time member of IEEE for more than long enough, and with sufficient accomplishments to be a senior member. I was also previously the manager of a calibration laboratory and am quite expert in a broad variety of electrical and electronic techniques.

I don't know about a D cell killing you. You could voltage multiply it of course, but any such multiplied voltage/ reduced current would quickly fade to less than lethal levels between electrodes gripped between hands of a typical 20K resistance younger person or a 50K resistance dried and aged old fart such as yours truly. Only a few sustained milliamperes (not microamperes) can kill, but you must deploy it in a certain way.

There was an incident where a 9V battery killed a military electronics trainer when the electrodes attached to the battery punctured his tongue (a very low nerve conduction resistance directly to his heart). Tragic and shocking.

Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
11. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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True. They could replace air gaps, but I bet the viscous dissipation in them between two relatively moving surfaces is worse energy loss than the magnetic gain given when loop path is without small air gap.

Also they have a "mind of their own." - For example a flat surface of them with air interface above it, will "grow vertical whiskers" as a magnet approaches - might be hard to keep them where you want them.

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12. ### danshawenValued Senior Member

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The whiskers should help matters if you plumbed it along lines of magnetic flux. It's just an expedient to making the magnet a horseshoe shape instead of a rod. Anything you do to increase the change in the flux through the current loops will make the system more efficient.

13. ### X-Man2We're under no illusions.Registered Senior Member

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Billy,

Nice find! I wonder how tall these could be reasonably built? If one could be built as tall as today's tallest turbines,I'm curious what the weight would be.That is vs the typical turbine weight.

Tim

14. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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There is a central carbon fiber rod and conical shell of light weight thin material, with some structural ribs, I assume to the rod and the generator near the ground.

Very very much lighter for same height and very much lighter for same power output per unit. (But remember in a given field there can be four (or more?) times more units.)

We can get an idea from the two data points they give that I quoted: Height of 3 & 13 Meters weigh 22 and 220kg. A linear fit would give the weight, W, in Kg as:
W per meter of height = (220-22)/ (13- 3) = 19.8Kg /m. So a 100 m tall one would weigh 1,980Kg, nearly a metric ton. I think each of the three blades of more conventional 100 m wind machine weigh at least that and the generator AT THE TOP at least 10 tons then the tower more than 50 tons, all by my guesses.

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16. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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I doubt it is cheaper per watt of capacity as has very small "sweep area" compared to the area with material cost. I have never seen it before, but there are at least 5,000 vertical axis wind generators in use. Some are very tall. I think the big ones must have some sort of break to bring them to rest in stong winds (or way to "feather the blades.") Power of the wind goes as the cube of the wind speed - a rare storm can destroy the typical fixed blade wind machine like in photo below.

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[/URL] Dam - none will show here. Google: vertical axis wind generators

finally found one that will show - being set up. The are actually slightly more efficient than the standard horizontal axis macines, but will not self-start. - often small reversed cups machine on same shaft to get them started. Weight of generator is near the ground too. Their blades (often only two) have curve the shape a rope spun will take when tied only at the ends. I. e. only tension in the blades.

The machine you show seems to be just a twisted stack of reversed cups - the least efficient form of wind machine. Normally only used for aerometers (no stack and no twist.)

Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
17. ### cosmictravelerBe kind to yourself always.Valued Senior Member

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Don't forget these can be made with more height to offer more watts.

http://www.sauerenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=162

http://www.sauerenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52

18. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Not my concern. I was (and still am) questing your post 12 statement that they are cheaper than the machine of the OP.
Your first link of post 14 is very quiet on the cost but the FAQ tab does say:
"Federal incentives equal 30% of the installed price of the kit, up to $4,000, in the form of a tax rebate." referring to the 1500 watt max output machine. If$4,000 is 30% cost then cost is: $13,333 or$8.89/watt.

The smallest Vortex machine is the most expensive per watt - 100W for $250 or$2.50/W, less than 1/3 the cost of the "Wind charger" even if you are happy with the DC output.* The $5,000 Vortex machine has 4,000 W output so its cost is$1.25/W - I.e. better by more than 7 times cheaper per watt!

My suspicions, in first sentence of post 13, were very well justified.
The reason why I had never heard of the WindCharger" is that it is a ridiculously expensive machine.
Lots of material to pay for and the least efficient of ALL wind machine designs! Hope you don't own stock in this company.

* The Vortex machines are fundamentally AC in their output, but the resonate frequency of large ones would be much lower than 60Hz. It would require considerable mass of iron transformer to step up the output voltage for transmission to distant loads so probably that AC would be rectified to DC and then made back into 60Hx (or 50Hz if that is the standard power company frequency used where the load is.) To keep the weight of iron low, airplanes often use 400Hz AC.

Last edited: Jun 20, 2015