New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    LOL! Oh yes, he's spreading hatred because he doesn't want to be told how to live by the 'good' Muslims here and if he doesn't he'll go to Islamic hell. Hilarious! :bravo:
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    OK, now provide some proof. I mean contemporary PROOF

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    Seeing as in, Muslims have zero CONtemporary proof of Mohammad's xistance, I'd be interested to see YOURS

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    As it stands, the entire episode was made up.

    This is only proof of a much later antisemitism.

    OK, now post some proof.


    See, it's really simple, provide proof.
    Link some proof.

    yeah man, sounds good, now post some evidence.
     
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  5. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    Where did anyone say this? No where.

    Again, where was this said? No where.

    Haven't we been over this?

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  7. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Your psychotic religion makes those claims.
     
  8. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    Prove it. All of you can sit here and try to make up such fabricated claims but how about you back your shit up or admit that your full of shit and are talking out of your ass. What other group besides Islam and Muslims do you treat in such a way? What other group besides Islam and Muslims are you so critical in such a bigoted way? What other groups are put under such scrutiny and suspicion other than Islam and Muslms? "Enlightened, openminded and tolerant," West my fucking ass.

    The fact that your choosing to post this horseshit that is totally irrelevant to the thread says alot. Islam, Muslims and topics related to both, can't even be discussed in this forum without these paranoid, psychotic and bigoted reactions which says alot about all of you self-righteous Western Atheists.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Still no example of anything that actually exists - it's been a few days now, you've had time to look.
    I never claimed you couldn't find all kinds of texts and scholarly claims and so forth. I assumed that's where you got your stuff, rather than making it up yourself.

    It's just that I don't see any matching Islamic religion, or correlative body of believers. I see the Islam in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Mali, Pakistan, lots of different versions of Islam to select from, and none appear to match your assertions about "Islam".
    Serious gential mutilation remains common among Egyptian Muslims. Its practitioners cite their Islamic faith in justification - to the point that Egyptians in the US sometimes send their daughters to Egypt for the procedure, as a means of holding to their Islamic faith in a Western culture.

    In Mauritania, justfication as Islamic was so common that some local clerics issued a fatwa saying it was forbidden by Islam. It remains common, and remains justified as Islamic, among the Muslims there.
    It's common in the Arabian peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Kurdistan, etc), as well, and a couple of other places. They justify it as Islamic custom. But really, that is beside the point - even if it were just African, I am told quite firmly that African Islam is full status - the Islam does not discriminate against Africans, not at all. So the Islam in Africa is the Islam we have to deal with, in the outer world of unbelievers.
    You haven't noticed for yourself? Oh, but I forget - the burka, the forbidden bicycle and car driving, the sequestration at home unless escorted and monitored, the genital mutilation, the domestic abuse, all that stuff is both the woman's free choice and not "inherent" in Islam. Right?
    You can't address my arguments with "textual evidence", and you haven't addressed them otherwise.
    What is clear by your posts is that you are attempting to declare a lot of stuff not "inherent" in Islam, and attempting to prove that point by quoting Islamic scholarship and texts. That is an assertion of an "inherent" body of beliefs which are, you would agree, "Islam". It is a rejection of these other beliefs, which millions of Muslims hold and justify as Islam, as not among the "inherent" ones - your term.

    I am accepting all these other beliefs held by millions of Muslims as Islam, and you are accepting only the ones you find "inherent", according to scholars and texts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2010
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder if societies that accept polygamy as normal tend develop and maintain misogynistic attitudes towards women versus societies where monogamy is practiced? Although they didn't run any "scientific tests", this notion was considered to be so self-evident that Communist Chinese banned polygamy following the Communist Revolution - as in that ideology women and men must be equal.
     
  11. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    1,106
    That was equality as subjectively viewed by Communist China no? Another way of viewing equality is all humans deserve to be treated as humans.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2010
  12. IamJoseph Banned Banned

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    Polygamy was widespread in ancient times because women's rights did not yet come of age. A woman in ancient times could not survive independently - it was permissable to rob and kidnap a lone woman. Most common cause for polygamy was not a sexual premise but of protecting female family members. One was obligated to marry the wife of a deceased male relative - whether he liked her or not and whatever her age and condition was. But this does not appear the case with today's acceptance and practice of polygamy.
     
  13. IamJoseph Banned Banned

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    What is emerging in the past recent two years is an aray of Muslims coming out as Muslim Zionists - or rejecting today's Arab Islamism and its false claims of others and of history. This is not easy to do - considering the premise of murdering anyone who insults Islamic premises and killing any who had second thoughts and leave the faith.

    This one comes from as far away as Bangladesh, and facing extreme torture and danger:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Player.htm#2#535
     
  14. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    Really? No example? I have named Imam Hussaini Shirazi (RA) (whom held the title of Grand Ayatollah) many times in this forum. His family also has produced many marji and they and Imam Hussaini Shirazi (RA) are famous for opposing the views, politics and actions that happened under Imam Khomeini. I have named my marja Imam Sistani whom is the leading Shi'i cleric in Iraq and is followed by millions of other Shi'a around the globe. I am Shi'i ithna ashari usuli, my views are pretty the mainstream/"orthodox," views in the Shi'a ummah. There is millions of Shi'a around the world whom would agree with me. Every Shi'a would be/is against the Wahhabis/Salafis whom yell in the faces of Shi'a children "heretic." I have posted verses from al-Qur'an which is the central and most important text to every single, solitary Muslim. I have even mentioned the Mu'tazli school of which I follow and which started in the 8th century CE. I have also provided numerous sahih hadith. I mean, what more examples do you need? I'm sorry this doesn't match up with your version of Islam.

    See above. Not to mention it appears that you only see and accept what you want to and there is really nothing I can say to change this.

    Your point? Egypt is an African country and this is an African cultural practice. Here is a map showing FCG's prevelance:

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    If anything this would bi'dah ("innovation"). Here is some relevant hadiths on the matter:

    "Narrated Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "If somebody innovates something which is not in harmony with the principles of our religion, that thing is rejected."-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 861.

    "Jarir b. Abdullah reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He who introduced some good practice in Islam which was followed after him (by people) he would be assured of reward like one who followed it, without their rewards being diminished in any respect. And he who introduced some evil practice in Islam which had been followed subsequently (by others), he would be required to bear the burden like that of one who followed this (evil practice) without theirs being diminished in any respect."-Sahih Muslim, Book 034, Number 6466.

    It's clear that this horrific practice would not only be bi'dah but also a practice which is negative, atrocious, evil, bad, etc.

    Also in Mauritania they force feed their women at a young age because being large is the ideal and has great influence in terms of marriage prospects. It also wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that this practice also has religious justification for it however just like FCG it isn't practiced elsewhere in the Muslim world. So really, what's your point?

    Prove it.

    This isn't about "African Islam," it's about an African cultural practice. I am not commenting on Islam as practiced by Africans more I am commenting on a specific practice, a specific cultural practice which has no place in Islam and is bi'dah. You can't put a racist spin on this, sorry.

    Really? No textual evidence? I have posted numerous verses from al-Qur'an, sahih hadith and quotes by Islamic scholars, what more textual evidence do you honestly need? But really that's a silly question because you don't accept it even when I do post it and try to downplay it's weight and significance and sweep it under the rug.

    Texts? I am not quoting just mere "texts." I am quoting al-Qur'an and sahih hadiths. You can't downplay the significance and weight of either.

    No, it's not. I said X isn't an inherent part of Islam or Islamic practice because that's how you're portraying this, as if X were. What other group do you do you view things in such a manner? If I were to say, apply this to other races and say some black people eat fried chicken and watermelon thus all black people must do this therefore it's a black practice and inherent black preference. By your logic you would have to agree with this assertion.

    This isn't Ja'far > Rest of the Muslim community nor can you portray this in such a way. I have listed two Grand Ayatollahs, one of which is the leading Shi'a cleric in Iraq today and is also followed by millions of other Shi'a around the globe and I could go on and on.

    In other words your trying to portray this as Ja'far > Rest of the Muslim community which you can't. I'm sorry nor can you reduce my textual evidence to mere quotes by Islamic scholars. I have also posted sahih hadiths. I have even posted verses from al-Qur'an which is accepted by every single Muslim. I'm sorry this conflicts with your argument and version of Islam and Muslims. It isn't just me. I don't know how clearer I have to make this for you.
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Was Buddha a polygamist?

    Ancient Greeks were polygamists?
    Ancient Romans were polygamists?
    Ancient Japanese were polygamists?

    I didn't know that.
     
  16. IamJoseph Banned Banned

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    True there is no blatant obvious example of it in all countries, yet also true is that in ancient times women could not be independent and have business' as today. The only system which conducts polygammy today is Islam.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Someone best get to Utah and tell some of the Mormon sects they are suddenly Muslim. Might also want to tell other Christian sects that they are suddenly Muslim as well.

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  18. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    There is nothing inherently wrong with polygamy.
     
  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Don't think for a second your psychotic religion is alone in the world, it's just one of many hate filled ideologies plaguing mankind.

    "Enlightened, openminded and tolerant"

    Can you actually say your twisted cult offers those things? LOL! :bravo:
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Your first attempt at an example.

    Let's remove the irrelevancies (the names of the clerics and the Quran citations, etc) and take a look:
    The orthodox Shi'a put their women in the oppressive special clothing and impose the special rules, tend to creationist assertions, and exhibit a couple of other inconsistencies with your asserted nature of "Islam", but all in all probably one of the better examples.

    My friends who have traveled in the Middle East and central Asian Islamic world all - without exception - tell me that the regular Iranian Shia is on average one of the nicest, friendliest, most reasonable and most Western compatible people in the entire region, maybe the world in general.

    The fact that you are still quoting the Quran at me, and naming clerics, tells me that you have never really understood my posts, though.

    Oh c'mon. This has been a battle for years now. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/07/18/iraqi-kurdistan-fgm-fatwa-positive-not-definitive
    It obviously has a place in Islam as practiced by millions of Muslims. It is condoned by Islam, even justified by Islam, as practiced by millions of Muslims. If thousands of Muslims move into my neighborhood, one of the possibilities is that they will bring their Islamic practice of genital mutilation (which they will defend as part of their Islamic religious practice) with them.

    That happened, in Minneapolis and Rochester and a couple of other towns in Minnesota, USA.
    So?
    In theory. It has some unfortunate side effects, in practice - it tends to reward wealth too greatly, and punish poverty too severely, to easily support an egalitarian society or democratic politics, for one.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Three questions:

    (1) Is there anything inherently wrong with a man taking 5 wives?

    (2) Is there anything inherently wrong with polyandry (a woman with multiple husbands)?

    I hypothesize that social acceptance of polygamy leads to increased misogyny and ultimately reduced legal equality for women. Whether that is wrong is a matter of personal opinion. But, that's viewing things at the social level in particular societies. There may not be anything wrong at all with polygamy/polyandry/swinging etc... if that's what people want to do. So, I wonder: Why did the Chinese ban polygamy? If there's nothing inherently wrong? Why ban it? I suppose Chinese probably noticed that (at the time) polygamy went hand-in-hand with misogyny and it's probably why they made it illegal - following the introduction of Communistic philosophy to the Chinese people. However, who knows, in a Communistic Chinese Utopia polygamy and polyandry may be perfectly normal and in no way lead to a generalized misogynistic behavior :shrug: It's ideas like this that tell us that the notion of a Penultimate Perfect Ideology is not only very shortsighted but is misleading. Acting in a certain way in one society may not be the same as acting in the same manner in another. Societies change along with people's attitude.


    Think about some hippie love fest with some dude and his two babes "rebelling" against the establishment. Compare this with a 12 year old daughter "married" (for $150) to a 50 year old wealthy man to be his 4th or even 54th wife. It's simply a completely different scenario.


    But, yes, sure, in a free society adults should be able to choose the relationships they engage in.


    (3) Is there anything inherently wrong with homosexulaity?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    True, for the misogynist.

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  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    shab-barat mubarak to everyone at sciforums!!
     

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