New Book: The Hidden Origins of Islam

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    A question of purpose

    Focusing on the Trinity is the only new aspect of your thesis here. Islam has long been recognized as a response to the failure of monotheism in the region.

    I would also note that the "Book Review" is not that at all, but, rather, a product description by either the publisher or seller. What is hardest to discern is the purpose of the thread insofar as the aspects you have chosen to accentuate.

    In other words, I would go so far as to suggest that your representation makes it less likely that I would actually read the book.

    This is an interesting citation in many respects. Ibn Warriq might be asking the wrong question, or at least considering a problematic perspective. To the other, though, his reading of a passage from Crone's 1977 book reminds that the underlying premise of Puin and Ohlig is hardly new:

    Virtually all accounts of the early development of Islam take it as axiomatic that it is possible to elicit at least the outlines of the process from the Islamic sources. It is however well known that these sources are not demonstrably early. There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the seventh century, and the tradition which places this rather opaque revelation in its historical context is not attested before the middle of the eighth. The historicity of the Islamic tradition is thus to some degree problematic: while there are no cogent internal grounds for rejecting it, there are equally no cogent external grounds for accepting it.

    (qtd. in Warriq)

    To the other, Warriq's article is fascinating. I actually expect Puin and Ohlig's book to be pretty interesting, too, so don't let my prior remark suggest you've succeeded in chasing me away.

    However, this is just another brick in the wall, or even perhaps a fragment of mortar chipped away. Two statements from Ohlig's interview are worth noting:

    Why is it that these links haven't previously been made?

    Ohlig: Such inquiries are forbidden in Muslim theology, which hasn't yet passed through its Enlightenment. Western Islamic studies remains preoccupied with philology without employing the established methods of historical scholarship. Similarly, there is little religious-historical or Christian theological investigation into the extremely varied cultural traditions of the Middle East. As such, the roots and motives of these traditions are not recognized.

    In your book "Early Islam," you write that you do not wish to harm this religion. Many Muslims will see the exact opposite in your work.

    Ohlig: Since the 18th century, many Christians, even to this day, regard the Enlightenment as an attack and an attempt to destroy their religion. In reality, however, it has allowed Christianity to survive in the modern world and also be applicable to the lives of modern man. This is a phase that Islam still has to go through, but it is unavoidable if it doesn't want to exist in the future only in ghetto-like, closed communities.


    (Hackensberger)

    The Islamic Enlightenment Ohlig refers to is, technically, overdue. However, this is where sociopolitical factors of the twentieth century enter the issue. In past centuries, it is possible that the fall of the Ottoman Empire would have eventually led to the beginning of the Islamic Enlightenment. Indeed, the mystical and metaphysical traditions within Islam suggest the paradigm was moving in that direction. Mansur al-Hallaj reached (and died for) a pinnacle of mystical thought in the tenth century: Ana al Haqq. His influence is still prominent today among Sufis and post-Qabalist Thelemites.

    However, the modern world and its concerns seem to have intervened in this traditional cycle of empire, collapse, and rebirth. The twentieth century was a hard one for most Muslims, and the ultraconservative vestments of extremism and authoritarianism that dominate the headlines should not surprise us.

    Coming back to your purpose with this thread, I would suggest the brick in the wall, or chip of the mortar, is inconsequential in the question of that dark side of Islam that has captured so many people's attention. That sector of Muslim society is rigid. What we gain from such explorations as Puin and Ohlig's is a longer-term profit: Our understanding of the cultural dynamics influencing the shape and face of Islam is increased slightly—we can harvest much greater fruit once we learn to utilize the tools such an endeavor offers. When the seeds of Enlightenment begin to flower, we will better recognize them for what they are, and understand that much more about how best to tend the garden.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Warriq, Ibn. "Historical Methodology and the Believer". New English Review. June, 2010. NewEnglishReview.org. July 8, 2010. http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/66954/sec_id/66954

    Hackensberger, Alfred. "Muhammad as a Christological Honorific Title". 2008. Qantara.de. July 8, 2010. http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-756/i.html
     
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  3. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    how? we don't worship two gods or something, we only worship god/allah, the creator of everything. there's a sura about the monotheism of god(god is one).

    yes, and that's because of education in those caring countries, (that have the terrorists groups) the education have an imporatant role to educate people, and to educate them also the real islam, and the peace in it, and not teaching them some fanatic ideas and fanatic teaching and social corruption, also wars, world wars, others wars, later invations, helped to creat these groups, that some of them were just people who defend their country, then became terrorists, or some madias, that expanded, and became fanatic terrorists

    islam will never get back it's peacefull face, and it's happy face in the eyes of the world, inless all or most muslim countries advances, and catch up with the developed countries, some of them are on that track, some of them maked hard steps to get rid of fanatism, and to teach it's children the peacfull islam, and the real face of it, the face that helps to plans those enlightement seeds and turns them into flowers, tourists that come to my country, always get shocked, from what they see, because they expect us to be, poor, or fanatics, not educated, terrorists, but they find the contrary,enlightened people, kind and helful, nice, don't kare for what relegion is you, opened, modern but kept their traditions and hertiage, bringed democracy well partially, still growing, and learned all people the peacefull islam. we have a bright future, that's how we can fix our image to the west, for example, if we weren't muslims, we will think the cause of terrorism in the middle east is islam, but no, but when we look at them, we find them closed, if we weren't muslims, we would defferently blame islam as you do.



    just a addional info: islam, or quran, came by steps, because, like, you can't come into a society who love sex, adultury, wines, and and and. and tell them don't drink wine, don't do sex, don't don't don't don't, so quran came in steps, so people can get used to it, and not send it in a one step, because people can't all what they are doing in a minute or a day, or a week, also, the prophet mohamed(pbuh) used to drink wine, because it wasn't prohibted from the first place, but it became prohibeted later (as quran came in steps)
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    So according to this logic, people should start out drinking and whoring in their 20s, settle down and get married in their 30s, have kids in their 40s, and then get married to their next wife (we'll just say a 25 year old

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    in their 50s!! Who'd a thunk Rupert Murdock was the Prophet

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    ..... it's hard slog dragging conservative orthodox Christianity into modernity, regardless if you call it Islam, LDS or whatever.....




    @ Tiassa,

    I hadn't read about the Christian coins before. Ot thet the word Mohammad was actually used a Title for Jesus. Of course, while this new information is not shocking in the least (and if anything could be expected) it's an extremely important find and very interesting nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
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  7. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    @ Michael

    Allaah isn't male, female, neuter, or a body in case you didn't know.
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The question is also about the other movement - the necessary steps by which the current Islam comes to accept sex, wine, and so forth (and greater freedom for women, deeper learning in the sciences and humanities, a larger context in which to view such events as the writing of the Quran with its imperfections, etc) and give up what is ugly and wrong and nonsensical about Islam in the modern world.
     
  9. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    nothing to change in islam, but to change in societies, in tunisia, and other arab countries, women have their full rights, also, i don't, or even our society, don't accept sex for non married, or alcoholic drinks, we don't have to adopt what hearts us, sex, for non married, make many problems, alooot, what makes the islam ugly, not the quran, but the people, the terrorist groups in middle east, the poor countries, the countries in war, coem to tunisia, and you'll have a good view on islam, go to iraq, and you'll have a bad one, because of the war, so it's the quran, it's the people. also, do you accept that your mother or your sister go have sex with different guys? do you accept that your sister get raped? or your mother? and don't tell me that alcoholic drinks don't cause any problems, esspecially in the usa, no accidents? nomurders? no crimes? no raping, or having sex? also, because of sex as a daily thing, well, almost, don't tell me that the adultury kids, are not going hight. we don't hav to be like you to be developed, tunisia, we are developing country, with carefull steps to a developed country, with a knoledge based economy that depends on people and not oil..also we have industries of everything and in all domains, mecanics, medecines, textiles, fertilizers+the continuing new mega projects+the growing tourism+++++
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2010
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Did the Enlightenment change Western society for the worse or the better?

    I'm pretty sure a lot of Jews now know they didn't "build the pyramids" and the whole exodus story is a myth - yet, there are still plenty of Jews. We now know Jesus probably didn't exist and yet there are still plenty of Christians. As Muslims discover their Islam is actually an orthodox branch of Christianity and Mohammad was actually a Title for Christ - it won't matter, there will still be plenty of Muslims.

    The goal isn't to eradicate religions it's simply to learn about the real history of world religions. What this does is it allows for a certain demographic to maintain some sort of superstition (which as you can see here that's just the way some people must think) while at the same time mentally freeing those who don't need to have an answer to everything and allow them to mentally explore the reality that is our universe. On the backs of those few people progress the whole of humanity

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  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    So you're saying it's silly to refer to Allah as a "He"?

    This thread is more about the idea that the word Mohammad was a Title for Jesus, not an actual person. The idea Mohammad was a person was developed along with the Qur'an in the 8th century - which eventually led to Islam as this branch of Christianity further split.
     
  12. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    oh, really? so why do the quran mention both? mohamed, and the christ, the son of mary?
    hmm
    pleas, get over it dude, you are upsessed.
     
  13. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    god/allah is not he, not she, not it, and not they, god is over our mind, like many other things that are greater than our understanding.
     
  14. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    ok keep your proganada you little upsessed, ok christanity is the mother of the world, christanity is everything and what created the wolrd. here, are you happy now?
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    In case you missed it the 100 other times, I'm not Christian.


    Anyway, this sort of information is really educational. I'm looking forward to the day when research such as this will provide a healthy balance and a cornerstone of the K-12 Western educational system. Not just for Muslims, but for all people of each faiths. We're becoming more and more diverse nations - it's important we teach this sort of research to the wider community. Yeah, your generation will miss out but the future generations will be more tolerant, less pig-headed and much more open to interpretation their religions beliefs for a modern world.



    A shared mythology is also a common point between the three Abrahamic religions - shared Histories. Which will lead to a better appreciation of one another. Perhaps even to less hate and more peace?




    Regardless, the research will continue. Some people, even Muslims, would like to find the truth from the fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  16. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    I have not read the book nor am I to familiar with the claims of said book. However I did get in argument with someone who cited this book and was trying to claim the Muhammad = Jesus and Islam = Christianity and then produced translations that were at best, laughable. Not to mention, these people didn't even have a proper understanding of Islam, Arabic, Islamic history, Middle-Eastern/Arabic culture/history, etc. Which if you don't really know anything about Islam, why just cling to a book and try to argue it like solid facts? Beats me, seems much simplier to start at the begining. As another member said, the origins of Islam are not hidden.
     
  17. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    I know what the thread is about I was reffering to:

     
  18. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    should i care?

    ok, OUR people, and OUR education system, dude, go educate your self about tunisia...since you're calling your self educated, well, propably you should've know, anyway.. i got what you mean.


    well, why don' you start that in the western world? first you started all wars, second, it's you who hate us, third, stop teaching your generations hating us! generation after another, and your hate gets deeper, not all effcorse.

    anyway...
     
  19. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    as far as i know, for a regular book, the person who's going to explain it, should know everything in it, all details, and all parts of the story, with the full understanding, but apprently, the guy here that he's discussing about the quran, don't know anything about it, he just say what he wants to say, just like any other fake lier... and calls himself educated, if he was educated, he would study the book first, each detail, and full understand it, them he should come and talk...
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Ah, yes, Allah's mistress Sophia - she called the Universe into being and, being a woman, carries the Wisdom of the world. Of course those particular Christians knew Sophia didn't really cut Allah's balls off - that was an allegory.

    So? Have you ever wondered why you have no idea when the Qur'an was written? Interesting question isn't it? One would think it's completion would be some sort of Holy Day. Of course, once we realize that's not really how Islam came about - it make sense why we wouldn't know. Speaking of myths, and Sophia, she and Christ unite and as bride and bridegroom descend into the pure vessel that is Jesus .. until his Crucifixion where Christ and Sophia rise again from the Jesus .... in the Syrian tradition. Interesting huh? Another thing that's interesting is that the word Mohammad was a Title for Jesus. Yes, people believed all sorts of interesting kooky things back then. If you even have a chance to learn about this stuff you'll soon realize that the idea people could go from Mohammad as a word to Mohammad as a person, to Mohammad as a Prophet... well, you ever known a strong theist before? They'll believe the moon was split in half if you tell them young enough - when I read these myths, I'm convinced they'll pretty much believe anything.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    They do seem to be all but completely unknown, in their specifics - at least, I've never heard an account of them that seems reasonable to a non-believer.

    And research into them has been forcefully and even violently discouraged, by those with the best access to information, places, possible sources of information, etc.

    If you are satisfied with the believer's myths, then you are not unusual in that respect. But you can't expect nonbelievers to join you in declaring the matter known and settled.

    The very well informed person who believes what is wrong or false can be corrected by even the most ignorant person not likewise deceived.

    Most of the people who know the Quran in detail, know it backwards and forwards, have studied its every word, believe things about it that are simply foolish - not just wrong, but obviously silly. They often can be corrected by anyone acquainted with human nature and human folly, even those who have never read a word of the book.

    Or more simply: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into the worst trouble; it's the things you know for sure that ain't so".
     
  22. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    ok, you really started to be too weird, so why are you so absessed with it? ok, i beleive in djins, i beleive in god, i beleive in angles, i beleive in deamons, do you have a problem with that? i mean, does it kill you? you are so upsessed with it! take a break dude, you started to be..ubsessed with it, like you have nothing else to do in your life, also, it's not your problem to care about islam or quran, or how we live, or how we should live, take care of your own buisness...(no offence

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    ) i can't tell you what to do either..

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    same answer ot Michael
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  23. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    oh, then if the quran is written by us, don't you think that we should've be a thousand year ahead in science? considerign the things written in quran, so if it written by men, so, that age, they should've ben so much developed and knew aloot, and were very developed in maths, considering the numerique organisations in the quran, hmm. anywya, do you have a problem for who beleive in god, and who beleive in quran? why does this bother you? why do you care? why are you so upsessed with it... get over it...
     

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