New News Oceans On Mars???

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by rhw007, May 27, 2002.

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  1. rhw007 Registered Senior Member


    Water, even LIQUID water on Mars was stated at the very first Odyssey briefing, the May 9 lecture and of course, for YEARS already by members of the Cydonia Village who do NOT need someone else ( in this case the BBC ), to actually THINK for themselves and to LOOK at the data that is there and come to their OWN intellectual conclusions rather than dance at the end of someone's puppet strings.


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    It's also been SEEPING out ALL over the place, if one bothers to look:

    Cydonian Villagers Effrain and Palermo SEEPS:

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    The Mars lecture series by Dr. Gibbs let 'slip' in the Q n A session that they ALREADY HAVE ACQUIRED infrared nighttime images of the Cydonia area, note plural images! This upcoming May 30 news conference should have more and LOTS more than simple H20 'findings'. Its been found and mapped in gross distributions. While I am sure that more 'detailed' water maps have been done in the interim since the March news conference, we ALREADY knew in March that there was LOTS n LOTS of water that NASA/JPL were finally ready to admit being there. Sorta like Dr. Mikey n Dr. Kenny having to come kicking and screaming:

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    No, water and oceans of it, is not 'new' news to those who have followed the issues and thought for themselves. So one would hope that REAL NEW DATA like the multiple nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae Area would be released, ALONG with the raw and ancillary data this coming May 30, 2002. Along with the ancillary data from the April 2002 Cydonia Mensae Face and D & M Pyramid images including WHICH filter band, of the 14 that were available and ALREADY FULLY on the sensor, was actually commanded to be read by the computer and tramsitted to Earth. Also an interesting answer would be to find out what happened to the data that was on the rest of the sensor bands as it passed over this enigmatic area. Why wasn't it released with the Public Release of the image itself? Will we have to wait ANOTHER THRITEEN ( 13 ! ! ! ) months to receive the ancillary data from the April 2002 Odyssey Cydonia image like we had to wait for the April 2001 Cydonia Mars Gloabal Surveyor MOC data???!!! There is only a 6 month LEGAL 'embargo' period contracted with these 'private principle investigators', so why the extra delay?

    Also what would be really really NEW news would be a TRUE COLOR image of the 'life forms' found at the poles:

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    Sure would be nice if we could all LOOK and STUDY some TRUE COLOR images of these enigmatic features!!! Now THAT would be NEW news!

    And of course TRUE COLOR and the nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae area, if acquired the right longitude and latitude would help SETTLE the ultimate question and hypothesis:

    That the following is an ARTIFCIAL exhaust vent that is CURRENTLY active in the middle of DOWNTOWN CYDONIA:

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    Now THAT is one 'crazy' hypothesis I am sure many are thinking. NASA/JPL has ALREADY ADMITTED that they ALREADY have data which could confirm or deny that hypothesis. Between the nighttime infrareds and the TRUE COLOR images of this feature in this area of MARS we could have all the best available data to examine this extraordinary claim.

    Dr. Sagan stated that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Well also true is that extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary investigation, and an extraordinary investigation requires an extraordinary review and discussion process that is publicly open and honest.

    The BIGGEST question that remains to be answered this Thursday on May 30, 2002 in the second 'official' Odyssey news conference; is EXACTLY how honest, and how open, and how encompassing, and how brutally truthful that conference will be and whether the DAWGs of JPL can be kept at bay. Despite promises made and already broken, one can remain hopeful that maybe, finally, they will get past the Brookings Mentality and let every one discover that we are NOT still living in the Dark Ages when humanity was thought to be:

    1. All alone

    2. On a flat Earth

    3. At the center of the Universe

    4. As it revolves around us

    5. Riding on the back of a giant turtle

    We'll all breathe-in, breathe-out and get over realizing that the first item is just as false as the rest. That can ONLY come if NASA/JPL decides to REVEAL the TRUTH and ALL, repeat ALL the DATA it has gathered and the ancillary information with it this Thursday.

    That's multiple nighttime infrared images of the Cydonia Mensae area and TRUE COLOR images of MARS, MULTIPLE areas where there are indications of LIFE, both intelligent and vegetable forms.

    We'll see. But water on Mars? Where are those who pooh-poohed the idea before and railed against the images? Where are the die-hard CO2 fanatics now that the DATA is being recognized for what it always was, water?

    So many more people would be able to THINK for themselves and come to their OWN intellectual conclusions if NASA/JPL and its 'principle investigators' were simply MORE honest and open with the data it is acquiring. To re-iterate an important and very pertinent and valid point, the Mars Odyssey spacecraft and the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft are NOT the private toys of these folks. There are OUR national assets, and on this Memorial Day Holiday, it is ever more poignant to remember what it has cost this country for that to be. Soldiers die for an HONEST government. Let us have it.

    <p><FONT FACE="Papyrus"><FONT SIZE=-1><FONT color="gold">Think out there act down here...NOW! Have YOU?<BR>
    Let's taunt a Billionaire to Mars ! ! ! Beats Begging.<BR>
    Give a High School kid a reason to care...a spacewalk!<BR>
    Teach 'em a lesson in teamwork.<BR>
    Teach 'em a lesson in humanity.<BR>

    <A HREF="">Bob... ;-{)</A>

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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

    *Xev weeps wordlessly*

    Not you again. Jesus fuck, I see you haven't laid off on inhaling the nail polish remover.

    Good grief man, at least switch to non-acetone! They found ice, not liquid water.

    The contents of your skull seeped out of your ears long ago, sweetie-pie.
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  5. kmguru Staff Member

    That is a good one....

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    I laughed so hard.....
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  7. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member


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    February 6, 1998 This picture of a canyon on the Martian surface was obtained a few minutes after 9 PM EST, January 12, 1998 by the Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC), during the 85th orbit around Mars of the Mars Global Observer spacecraft. It shows the canyon of Dolls Vallis, one of the Martian valley systems cutting through cratered plains in the Yogi Berra region of Mars. The picture covers an area 9.8 km by 18.5 km (6.1 mi by 11.5 mi), and features as small as 12 m (39 ft) can be seen. The canyon is about 2.5 km (1.6 mi) wide. Rocky outcrops are found along the upper canyon walls; weathered debris is found on the lower canyon slopes and along the canyon floor.

    While the exact origin of this canyon is still unknown, some features hint at the possibility that there was abundant water present on the surface during recent Martian history (at least as recent as last month when this photo was taken). Some scientists have suggested that the smooth, highly reflective surface seen within the upper reaches of the canyon could be indicative of a large body of standing water. This is supported by the fact that a large number of erosional features on the walls and surrounding plains have been interpreted as being the product of water-based erosional processes. Mission scientists are cautious, however, in assuming that this is an image of a Martian lake, noting that all of these images are preliminary data and could be due to a myriad of other natural phenomena. Indeed, according to the Project's Chief Scientist, similar large flat areas on the Moon were named after seas and oceans by early astronomers only to be found by later researchers to be dry dusty plains.

    Another possible hint at water on Mars is the large semicircular structure which is situated within the canyon itself, one which resembles a dam. A number of scientists have suggested that this structure was formed as debris washed down the canyon during a series of catastrophic floods during periods when Mars climate was far more temperate. Although the structure does exhibit a rather geometric, constructed shape, scientists are reluctant to suggest that this structure is in any way artificial. Large structures such as dams would require a large work force and a substantial budget to complete. So far there is no evidence of any governmental organization or construction industry on Mars. Citing noted astronomer Percival Lowell's drawings of Mars, project scientists have noted that this is not the first time that human observers have looked at the surface of Mars and thought that they saw evidence of water management systems.

    Despite suggestions in various news tabloids, project scientists were quick to dispell any suggestion that the branched structure seen northeast of the dam-like structure is a marina. In making this statement, project scientists point out that there is very little air on Mars and that sailboats would be impractical nor is there enough Oxygen to support the internal or external combustion engines used in powerboats.

    NASA scientists will continue to analyze this image but urge caution in the interpretation of these preliminary pictures. Only when NASA's sample return missions have landed and returned their cargo to Earth for analysis will NASA be able to make a formal announcement regarding the nature of these features.

    ***Thanx to Thed for the article***
  8. rhw007 Registered Senior Member

    nasa seems to have chickened out

    Seems like the idea of having to answer some questions about 'oceans' of water was a bit too much, so they weaseled out n cancelled.

    No, letting us see the nighttime infrareds or TRUE COLOR images would most certainly be more than we can handle all at once.

    Actually with the intellectual puppet puppy mentality I see lots of places, they may be right. There's WATER on Mars folks, LIQUID water, and LIFE and ARTIFICIAL things there as well. No matter how long they put off the inevitable, the brutal truth will be accepted sooner or later by nearly everyone. breathe-in, breathe-out, get used to it.

    hehheh, what chickens!
  9. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Actually, I could not resist reposting the pardoy article. It seemed like such a fine time to do it.

    I await the Odyssey coming up to full speed and doing the IR scan of the planet. It may well tell us that there is liquid water or that there isn't liquid water anywhere to be found.

    I know that you believe that there is a conspiracy by NASA to hide, obscure, or distort the findings. I do not believe that such is the case.

    You wish to have NASA basically at your beck and call to produce what you wish to see. You are but one interested in what the results are and those wishes seem to be focused on "pretty colored pictures". I would suggest that if that is your desire that you become a scientist that works with those items (if they exist) and then you will have your wish. Short of that you are left with posting claims that NASA is withholding your hearts longing for some sort of coverup. Grow up. Get a life. Why would they want to do such? After millions of dollars spent on finding out info about Mars, how can you believe that you can just scream and have tantrums and maybe NASA will produce what you think?
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

    *Xev readies the Holy Trout of Scientific fact1*

    Quite frankly dear, walking while chewing gum is more than you can handle all at once.

    *Xev deploys the Holy Trout of Scientific Fact*

    1: Frozen water, dumbass.
    2: Water does not automatically equal life, you intellectual sock-monkey.
    3: Artificial things - yes, dipshit, there are actual probes on Mars! NASA sent them.

    Why yes, you conspiricy-mongers do have the intellects of chickens - oh, you meant NASA.

    *Xev shakes her head - it ain't working*

    Page, bring me my great sword Cluebringer!

    1: Not to be confused with the Holy Mackerel of Athiesm - That's for the Religion forum.
  11. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

    Nitrogen As Solar System Currency?

    In an attempt to push this thread towards something that resembles a discussion.

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    According to this article, the water on Mars could make it much easier to set up a viable community, as you could use the water for drinking, raising crops, making hydrogen fuel, and making oxygen for breathing.

    In all these arguments, however, I never see a workaround for getting much needed nitrogen to Mars. Without nitrogen, the Mars community would be breathing a pure oxygen environment, thereby forever being at risk of turning the habitation into a crematorium at the slightest spark. The only solution would appear to be to establish the proper mix of nitrogen to oxygen: 70% to 20% respectively.

    And don't all plants require nitrogen as well? Isn't the nitrogen cycle essential to all living organisms? According to this site, Mars has only 2.7% nitrogen in its atmosphere. This means that if we ever want a viable, sustainable community there, we're going to need a whole lot more nitrogen then is already there.

    So, could one conceive of a future where nitrogen is a precious commodity in the Solar System? I would argue in the affirmative since it is so integral to life, and would appear to be scarce (or it would take a while to transport) in the solar system. The only work around I would see is if Mars and the other planets in the Solar System had by some miraculous coincidence tons of nitrates in the soil, ready for us to farm.

    Could the Solar System run on a Nitrogen currency?

  12. paulsamuel Registered Senior Member

    reply to xev and goofy

    Xev, you said,

    "2: Water does not automatically equal life, you intellectual sock-monkey."

    If you mean liquid water, found on a planet's surface, it probably does mean life.

    Goofy, low nitrogen in Mars atmosphere does not mean low nitrogen on Mars as it could be bound in other compounds. For example, Earth's oxygen content (pre-photosynthesis) was in the form of oxidized elements.
  13. rhw007 Registered Senior Member

    Dr. Armstrong:
    "If you mean liquid water, found on a planet's surface, it probably does mean life. "

    What I find interesting, and sadly disappointing at the same time, is that the ESA with BEAGLE is the ONLY biological experiment slated to got to Mars in the present planning for the next decade. It almost seems as if NASA/JPL does NOT want to find any little critters at all!

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    Thanx for the post. I remind folks from time to time that the intensity of my, and others', criticisms of NASA/JPL concerning Mars does NOT mean we don't appreciate the efforts and the job they are doing in other areas. We only wish they would do it more openly and release data more quickly. Especially concerning the Cydonia area where promises made remove that area from the 6 month embargo period, in MANY people's honest opinion after reading their promises about the data from it.

    Promise to image Cydonia and release images:
  14. kmguru Staff Member

    May I recommend that when you post here, please reduce your intensity. Otherwise you will be considered a crackpot and members will read/post ignoring you. It is better to stay with facts. If you want to speculate - say so at the outset. No one will mind. And please - jumping on NASA all the time in this forum will not be productive either.

    Just the facts seems you do have a lot to offer - dont waste it.
  15. Brett Bellmore Registered Senior Member

    "If you mean liquid water, found on a planet's surface, it probably does mean life. "

    How do you establish a probability with just one sample? I must have skipped class that day.

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    I suspect the reason NASA hasn't been very keen on biological experiments for Mars is the discovery that the surface is super-oxidized, a condition which renders the survival of any recognizable organic material on the surface highly unlikely.

    Why Life Is Not Found on Mars' Surface

    "By Lee Siegel

    Science Writer
    posted: 02:00 pm ET
    14 September 2000

    Scientists have recreated Martian conditions in test tubes, producing a "disinfectant" that may help explain the planet's rusty red color and why life and organic material have not been found on the surface.

    The chemical is superoxide; a "free radical" or oxidant like those implicated in human cell damage from cigarette smoking, radiation and diseases like heart disease and cancer.

    "You would not expect life to exist at the immediate surface of Mars because production of these oxygen radicals will destroy organic molecules," said planetary geochemist Albert Yen of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California. "If life exists on Mars, it needs to be in a place where these chemicals don’t exist."

    The discovery of significant water on Mars is encouraging, though, but to really look for life on Mars would require substantial drilling; "Probably" (Remember, one sample?) any life on Mars would consist of underground chemosynthetic bacteria.
  16. kmguru Staff Member

    I would go for sometype of plant and animals many million years ago than life today on Mars surface.
  17. rhw007 Registered Senior Member

    30 is always from a minority acting in ways different from what the majority would prescribe that the majority in the end learns to do better.
    -- F.A. Hayek
  18. kmguru Staff Member

    It does not work. I tried that - got fired, then the company filed for Chap 11 for the very thing I tried to prevent. As the Japanese say, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. The Japs have the 2nd largest economy I think...but point well taken...

    If a little is good, a lot may not be better....
  19. rhw007 Registered Senior Member

    ...the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

    How true and sometimes the squeeky wheel doesn't get greased but replaced as you, and I actually have found out.

    yet, I still squeek, shout, rant and rave to my mechanical heart's content because I know I am right. In the transition of moments when we are in the inbetween, THAT is all that really counts, is if you were true to yourself and your heart and your fellow creatures around you. When your heart is stopped and breath is caught, no amount of buck-a-roos or swindle tricks will get you another of either.

    There are right now only a relative few of space enthusiasts touting artificiallity on Mars, more touting life of some kind now, even more touting LOTS of water on Mars, but that is STILL only a tiny tiny fraction of mainstream space enthusiasts, and THAT category (space enthusiasts) is a sad sad even minor minority among the general populace. Sometimes it seems we are shouting from the center of a tornado. Having a 'belief' in the Chinese Butterfly concept helps keep me going.
  20. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member


    Somewhere I missed the Chinese Butterfly concept. If you would be so kind as to explain...
  21. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    wet1 ...

    I think what rhw007 may be referring to is that a butterfly flapping
    its wings in China would cause a disruption of air currents that result in
    a storm in Chicago that knocks out power to the city overnight (like what
    happened in NYC a number of years back) with the result that there is
    a marked increase in births nine months later.

    Or something like that ... It's all Chinese to me.

    Take care

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  22. rhw007 Registered Senior Member

    Exactly Chagur. Thanx

    I also see you are a fan of Grace Slick, my all-time fav lady rocker. Heard any of the Stairway to Heaven CD? Awesome songs! I also have NEVER been able to find posters of the Airplane, Starship or even HotTuna despite having several friends in the retail records n posters business trying to find one for me. wierd. Anyhooo take care yourself and thanx again for the apt explanation of the Chinese Butterly effect...I wonder if some had thought it was some wiered sex thing?

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  23. kmguru Staff Member

    ....and for a while I thought you are a nutcase....

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    . welcome to the world of chaos....I have a friend who was a professor of mathematics but now a consultant for industry. He is called the guru of chaos. We have debated this many times over dinner at the restaurant after a days work at a client who have no clue about the "business dynamics", they are in.
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