New World

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Zapper, Nov 19, 1999.

  1. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

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    260
    It's parked on the dark side of the moon.

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    Heh, heh, here's another one for my Utopia - nobody is allowed to utter the sylables "y2k" in sequence for at least 5 years. (Can you tell I work in IT?)
     
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  3. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    The phrase "Separation of church and state" is widely misused and taken out of context. I give it the thumbs down. Most people don't even know what it really means or where it came from. It had nothing to do with the state being "separate" from the church."

    found at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1601/jeff-1st.html
    The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson on January 1, 1802. This was not a government document or public policy paper, but a personal, private letter. Jefferson's letter was written in response to an earlier letter from the Danbury Baptist Church. In that letter, written November 7, 1801, the Danbury Baptists voiced to President Jefferson their concerns about the First Amendment:

    "Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific.... [T]herefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights."

    The Danbury Baptists were concerned that Constitutional protection provided by the First Amendment suggested that the "free excercise of religion" was a government-given privilege rather than a God-given right, and as such, the government might someday choose to revoke that privilege.

    Jefferson understood their concerns, and also felt strongly that the government should not be permitted to regulate, restrict or interfere with the free excercise of religious expression. In response to the Danbury Baptists' letter, he wrote back, assuring them that they did not need to worry; that the free excercise of religion would never be interfered with by the government:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free excercise therof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurance of my high respect and esteem."

    "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!

    ------------------
    Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
     
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  5. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    Vinnie,

    You give separation of church and state the "thumbs down"? Are you saying that you believe that the government should regulate, restrict or otherwise interfere with the free excercise of religious expression, extending beyond punishing the "man who works ill to his neighbor"?

    I see no problem or conflict with my own feelings regarding separation of church and state. I maintain that it is a good thing, even a necessary thing in my world.

    Please clarify for me what your feelings are regarding separation of church and state, as I am extremely confused! If you feel that the "free excercise of religion" should be a government-given privilege rather than a God-given right - I sure don't want to live under your rule, Vinnie!

    ------------------
    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
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  7. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

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    [Are you saying that you believe that the government should regulate, restrict or otherwise interfere with the free excercise of religious expression, extending beyond punishing the "man who works ill to his neighbor"?]

    No I am not.

    [I sure don't want to live under your rule, Vinnie!]

    I'm not God so you don't have to. Nor do I set myself up as God imagining a world in which I had control and how great it would be. No matter what you do it will not be perfect unless there aren't any humans. We screw everything up. Instead of blaspemying and making up some fairy tale, lala, poofy poof world in which we make things all nice and fluffy we could get off our buts and change this one. The future is in our hands. I posted this somewhere, it might have been in this thread, but I'll post it again.

    [Two fellows are talking religion. One says to the other, "Sometimes I'd like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine and injustice when he could do something about it."

    "What's stopping you?" asks the second.

    And the first replies, "I'm afraid God might ask me the same question."]

    [Please clarify for me what your feelings are regarding separation of church and state,]

    Sorry, I didn't exactly specify what I was talking about in my previous post. I gave the misused, colloquialized "separation of church and state" the thumbs down. As for Jefferson's intended meaning, I give it the thumbs up. To each his own. I believe Paul mentioned something about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Your free to worshop in any manner you choose.

    But I do give this topic the thumbs down. Saying God isn't doing things properly and we can fix it or make it better is blaspemy and setting ourselves up as God. This reminds me of Job.

    Look at the story of Job in the Bible. This is the best answer we have to the problem of pain and suffering. 'Job lost his family to "a mighty wind," his wealth to war and fire, and his health to painful boils. Through it all, God never told Job why it was happening. As Job endured the accusations of his friends, heaven remained silent. When God finally did speak Neither did the Lord apologize for allowing Satan to test Job's devotion to God. Instead, God talked about mountain goats giving birth, young lions on the hunt, and ravens in the nest. He cited the behavior of the ostrich, the strength of the ox, and the stride of the horse. He cited the wonders of the heavens, the marvels of the sea, and the cycle of the seasons. Job was left to conclude that if God had the power and wisdom to create this physical universe, there was reason to trust that same God in times of suffering.' Try reading Romans 9:17-23. God's wisdom is far superior to ours. We may not always understand his ways (Isaiah 55:8) but somehow God manages to work all things for the good of those who love him (Romans 8:28). God may not always seem fair to us. Some of us may think God isn't doing things right but who can judge God?

    Isaiah 55:8-9
    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Vinnie

    Praise Jesus!!!

    ------------------
    Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."
     
  8. H-kon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    SkyeBlue - Lemme know when the ships leaving town

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    Education would have been free for all in my world, no matter how long you wanted to go, and nothing would have been hidden. Just have to balance it, and let the people decide for themselves. That's my opinion. A goal would be to build high bandwith connections all over the world no matter where they lived. At least one computer on every desk in the world, or in every familly. Internet would also be free to use for everyone in the world.

    Religion would be seperated from the state in my world. People would have to chose that too if they wanted religion, and that doesn't mean that the gov is higher than God. It only means that people have the right to chose without someone pointing in one direction.

    I would also create projects to clean the sea, rebuild the forrests, and clean the freshwater. A goal where everyone would have fresh clean water, and fresh food. I would also build a huge defense system incase a rock decided to land on earth.

    So many things.. so little time..
     
  9. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Vinnie -

    I'd like to just point out one thing - not all of us here in this forum believe in your God. Even for those that do, I don't think it's blasphemous to try to imagine a better world. Where did you get the idea we were saying God isn't doing a good job? I think the main theme here is that WE screwed up our world, and wouldn't it be nice if we could start over. I haven't seen anyone here post something lame like "there'd be statues of me everywhere, and I'd be worshipped as God" or something.

    H-Kon, Tablariddim, you two have reservations! Would that be for a window seat, or do you prefer the aisle?

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  10. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Skyblue,
    anywhere, as long as I'm sittin' next teya!

    -ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE LOVE LOVE-
    -LOVE IS ALL YOU NEED-
     
  11. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    After all of the respones I have a questions of my own to present. After creating your new world how would you maintain it? Goverments don't last for ever. There is allways someone who thinks he has a better idea then the one who is running the place. Than there are those who hell bent on controll and have no good intentions.

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 27, 1999).]
     
  12. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    4,795
    666,
    very true, but because this 'Utopia' would be based on more spiritual ethics, it would be more difficult for deranged power hungry individuals to gain a following.
     
  13. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    666 raises an important point. We could start off with a new "Utopia" but we would destroy it just as surely as we have destroyed our current globe.

    It's interesting what happens to people once there is a group of us. You can take individuals that are geniuses, poets, nature lovers, generous and kind. Put those same people in a large group and the undercurrents of greed, lust, hate, anger all begin to take over, unless you are extremely careful. There is no way to keep this new Utopia the way you want it without stealing individuality from the inhabitants.

    If I had a new world to start all over with, I duuno, mabye it'd be better if I DIDN'T put humans on it. I think maybe the world would have been better off without us. Use the new globe as sanctuary for all the beasts and plant life we are endagering with our foolishness and greed, and let them find their own destiny. They probably deserve a new planet more than we do.
     
  14. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Guess I'd better tear up the ticket then.
     
  15. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Welllll...maybe just a few humans

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    .

    Of course, *I* would be allowed, and since Tab' and H-Kon already have their tickets...
     
  16. Zappers Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    44
    There you go, a few people and lots of land mass for peace and quiet.
    Oh heck, we could get along and live near each other, don't ya think............. ?
     
  17. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    I didn't mean to rip you form the warm fuzzy side of this thread. I just belive it is important for people to see the biger picture. Is banning all humans from this new planet the right answer? I don't think so. I belive we could learn a better leason if we look at how many good things people do. Should we let Hitler or Stalin generlize or view of humanity? In fact we can learn a lot from the situation Hitler, Stalin and other tyrants have created. Next time you read about the holocaust don't focus on the murders but the things people did to help one another that happened to be in the same situation. Just thought I would throught this out there.

    ------------------
    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 30, 1999).]
     
  18. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    4,795
    Humans are basically good, but it is greed and a need for power which funks them up.The human condition is an establishment of various survival mechanisms which are difficult to balance in a complicated world. On the one hand the individual has an instinct to survive and gain the upper hand and on the other he has an instinct to help his fellow humans and his environment. The problem is that we do too much of the first and not enough of the other.
     
  19. Zapper Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    46
    Hi Guys
    Sorry, but I didn't intend for this to be taken seriously. I was simply interested in your view of a better World (not perfect by any means). As has been pointed out 'man/women' simply cannot handle power, nor does 'man/women' have the knowledge needed for such a task.
    Sometimes when reading what has been posted on the forum I wonder what people are trying to say. Many times it sounds like they think the solution is to rid the world of all "wrong people/thinkers" when in fact they mean something else.
    For example I misunderstood Lori (sorry Lori). I was under the impression she wanted a world only with people who were of her way of thinking. But if you read her post here under 'New World she says something quite different.
    So anyway don't take this seriously. I think most of the people who are posting here realize that this wasn't intended to be for taken seriously.
     
  20. Oxygen One Hissy Kitty Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,478
    Whether or not it is intended to be taken seriously, it's a good topic. A lot of people complain about what's wrong with the world, but if you ask them what should be done about it, their faces go blank and they go back to watching TV. They have no answers. Here, at least, we have seen answers. We have no way to know if they are the "right" answers or the "wrong" answers, but they are answers nonetheless, which is more than most people can offer. I am glad the question was asked.
     

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