New York World Trade Centre

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Red Devil, Sep 11, 2001.

  1. LordManimal Registered Member


    Okay, I'll quit.
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  3. kmguru Staff Member

    Very well said wet1.
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  5. Radical Registered Senior Member


    i wonder how come Arafat sent out special orders to subdue and stop any celebrations or acts of joy in the streets js after it turned out it was a terror attack.
    (if no celebrations are held why does one needa send orders and officers to put a halt on them?)
    i wnder how come te joy started just ater it turned out it was a terror attack?
    i wonder how come pals all over leb,jordan,egypt celebrated as well.
    i wonder how come pals spoke their mind about USA?
    i wonder how come USA flags were burned.
    i wonder how come reporters,photographers working for foreign media got threats if they dare to broadcast what they recorded in east Jerusalem and the west bank.
    (Reuters and many other foreign media sources have pals as photographers and reporters since it is more cheap,they got more connections and sources,get to the scene first.
    so a threat on the reporters is real and achievable)
    i wonder how come a day later yaser arafat declared that a memorial hour must be held and in villages held by the HAMAS none of such took place.

    face the facts.

    oh and log on to irc on the dal net network /server
    or {regular ports} try and see what goes on in the following channels #usa #palestine #israel #beirut #jordan
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  7. kmguru Staff Member

    Calm down Radical:

    USA has a history of working with the best minds in civilian and military to solve very complex problems. We are very good at it. And it shall be done - once for all. Not only we will huntdown and eliminate the threat, but remove the cause of threat for all civilized nations. The solution is not that difficult and we now have the will power to do it. - now that the terror is in our frontyard.

    Our capacity is far greater than any other country (with the possible exception of China) on this planet. And this may solve the Israeli problem too.
  8. Patman just one of the lost Registered Senior Member

    Thank you for posting that article. It is the first I ever remember hearing an unprovoked kind word about the U.S. Most of the time it a country we just bailed out of some crap, then after a couple of months they are back to talk shit about us.
    Save your pity, don't want nor do I need it.
    I justify war by knowing thousands of innocent American civilians died in an act of war.
    This was not an attack against the American war machine. This was an attack against our people, in our own country. This is and should be more so a reason to declare war on any and all terrorist groups and the countries that harbor them. It's pretty cut and dry. You probably don't know this, but when the federal building in Oklahoma was bombed everyone I talked to prayed it was one of these terrorist groups so we could finally go after them with some type of sympathetic support. Most Americans knew something like this was coming. Now that it has and we realize the magnitude of the attack. We as a hated Country in the world should prove just how hateful we can be.
    The "innocent" ones that don't want war should step aside and let the U.S. do what it must. Seek out and destroy the people responsible and any and all supporters.
    Canada having support around the world means nothing. Have you ever done anything to put yourselves front and center in an act that would make you hated by one group or another. Not that I recall. Even when it is a U.N. sanctioned military function, who gets the blame The United States. Their could be 20 countries involved in the action, but ultimately we are to blame. Shoulder some of that sometime and see how the world will see Canada as a nation.
    So because you are a peaceful, friendly nation it would be worse to bomb you than us. Tell me how do you view the U.S.? As the monster that they do because we are people of action. That we'll fight for what we believe in anywhere in the world. Does this make it OK Because in a sense we started this.

    BOMBING CANADA = BAD! They're a peaceful, friendly nation loved all over the world.

    BOMBING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA = NOT AS BAD! because what we are the bad country that fights for freedom anywhere it is needed. Don't forget one thing when shit hits the fan over seas, no one is crying for Canada to help it's always the U.S. Walk a day in our shoes you with all your world wide support. You will find that the shoes don't fit because they are very big shoes to fill.
    My point........ We don't need your support at all! We are very capable of doing this with minimal support from the countries surrounding Afghanistan.

    BTW Guess who liberated Kuwait! (Clue; it wasn't Canada)
  9. Captain Canada Stranger in Town Registered Senior Member

    Well, WWII when you were still all 'we can't get involved', WWI, paying our UN dues, instigating the isolation of South Africa when others still sought the greenbacks, giving sanctuary to and smuggling US embassy satff out of Iran in 1979, UN peace-keepinf duties in Africa, Europe, the middle east, which many Canadians have lost their lives.

    We don't have the biggest military in the world but we are always on the side of justice and peace. We don't fund terrorist organisations or bomb indiscriminately. As the biggest and most successful country in the world the US will always face threats, how it deals with them though in large part determines how many threats you face. If the US could accept it was wrong occasionally, perhaps it would have more friends. It's not always your fault you're hated, but sometimes it is.
  10. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member


    Nicely put Kmguru and very true. The combined might of the USA, Britain and NATO should, and I hope will, put an end to terrorism for good. There will always be idiots in every country - but we can deal a massive blow to their like now - worldwide. I fear Radical is not looking at this through the clear eyes of objectivity. Like Israel, the UK has suffered many years of terrorism; now is our opportunity to deal a massive blow for democracy and the freedom for people worldwide.
  11. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

    First of, LORD MANIMAL AND EVERYONE I ain't the one with my head in my ass. You guys get pissed at me for wanting a more peaceful resolution, who has their heads up their asses.

    You guys have no clue, your old hero benjamin franklin put it nicely though, 'either we hang together or we hang apart' By destroying a country all you would do is create more enemys. Why do you want to destroy them along with other innocents?? Why dont you want to help them as you say you help everyone, maybe financing a restructurazation of democratic government in their country or something?? All you're talking about is the same shit in a different pile -- your ever present ego. Thankyou CAPTAIN CANADA for pointing out the faults of the Americans. The only reason you libertated kuwait was because of the threat to the USA. Canada, UK, and many other good people were busy liberating countries for those countries rather than themselves. Let me remind you that AMERICANS will pretend to be canadians in travelling, to places all over the world just for good treatment. YOU CALL THAT PATRIOTISM and standing up for what you believe in??!?!?

    Also I think I should share a PM that Lord Manimal sent to me

    Silly canadian, egos are for countries who can afford them.

    Let me remind you Lord Manimal that Canada is expected to outpace the US, The UN rates us higher than you guys, and where I live, Calgary, Alberta We are swimming in American money that buys our petro. (We are your largest supplier BTW) We are one of the few reasons you could ever consider bombing the UAE. Americans move to Canada all the time because of our values and beliefs, TAKE HOWARDSTERN for example.

    Alberta has a way higher Socio economic rating and such than most US states. The only things that bring us down are the Eastern bums who mooched and still do off the fed government they voted for.
    Trudeau and them stole more than 100 billion in the 80's from our province with the NEP.

    Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against you Americans, and I still send my condolences. Like Captain Canada said, we dont have the biggest military's, but it doesnt matter, military isnt even everything. I still send my pity to you patman and now also lord manimal because you cant see past your noses.

    Let me reitterate my part about how so many Americans go travelling, posing as Canadians. What do you have to say about that?
  12. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

    Who rattled Elbaz' cage?

    I think we have a bear with a sore head here? Sorry Elbaz or whatever, your in the minority here and possible well within conscription age - are you afraid to fight for democracy or are you an islamic leftie? Whilst everyone in this forum is perfectly entitled to their opinion, right or wrong, there is no need to fly off the proverbial handle - be calm, be forthright, but above all, be sensible. If you have a valid point then voice it. However a "peaceful" solution is completely out of the question the moment the first jet hit the first tower. Whoever was responsible and we all "think" we know who it was, then the consequences are on their shoulders, not mine. You can plainly see that you are in a miniscule minority but we live in a democracy therefore you have that right - even if wrong.
  13. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

    Red Devil,
    first things first. Are you trying to say I dont want to fight for democracy? Actually if a war came (which in case you havent noticed I'm trying to prevent) then I would fight my ass off for it. But look at things this way. If there is war then nukes are gonna be used, and it doesnt matter if I fought or not because I would probably die somehow, along with everyone else. I dont want war, I want peace, In war, you have to kill 100% of your enemys and many of your own in order to get peace. But if you solved it peacefully, and diplomatically then I'm sure you'd only end up 'disposing' of the ticking time bombs. Also, if war started, all of my hard work in school would go down the drain because I would be drafted, I'm almost 16 and if war started they might have to change the conscription age to 17 or 16. When I would come back from war which would be very unlikely then I'd end up in some lower middle class job that I've tried to avoid.

    Are you saying that the only way to solve this is with violence?

    BTW I'm not a Muslim leftie, I'm a Jewish ambie.

    John Lennon put my message nicely in that song of his....I cant remember the name of it.

    Anyway if there is war, you will suffer too....dont forget.
  14. odin Registered Senior Member

    Well ,I agree with Gordon Sinclair. I think most true Brits do. Everyone I know agrees.
    There is no Gov. in the world that has not made mistakes.
    They can not go back & change things, so that's that!
    There are a lot of people who are saying on here that you should get the indiviuals that did it,& leave there power base in tact.
    The USA already tried that & what did it get them?Bigger,better bombs on their home cities.
    Radical,thanks for the updates.Very enlightening.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2001
  15. kmguru Staff Member

    Calmdown everybody:

    Those who want war will have a chance to fight. (If you want war, make sure you are ready to fight no matter what the cost - dont pass the buck)

    Those who want peace will get their chance after we get our hands on those criminals. Now, the peace lovers should work towards a comprehensive solution while the war mongers fight.

    I am sorry to say, it will get worse before it gets any better. Just be smart and prepare yourself. This time, none of you will be standing in the side lines and arguing....the incident and follow up ripples, is going to touch each of us.

    Remember one of our own sciforums member is missing (Howardstern). It is too close to home, where ever you live, what ever your color, religion, or national origin.


    Please gather your thoughts and let us have some constructive comments and opinions. May be we have something useful that the powers that be can use. (Note: these forums are monitored by NSA, CIA, Media). So be intelligent and act intelligent and let us hope the lives lost brings peace on earth and goodwill to mankind.

  16. ScotiaB Registered Member

    Patman: Nothing justifies war, it just means more people will die. War is the mark of a country/civilization which cares more to satisfy its urges than to protect lives and respect that we all have the right to live.

    This is something the US does not respect. It hass killed millions of people around the world, a large number of them civilians, showing no remorse. Just hiding behind the fact that they say it is "justified". Or possibly because they are impatient to use diplomacy and eager to use their new laser guided bombs. And to those of you who will still reply that it was justified because the country was doing bad things I have this to say. The Depleted Uranium is killing the Young and old, the young who were born after the conflict in the country, who have absolutely nothing to do with it, and they are being punished for the apathy of america.
    You cannot plead ignorance on this one.

    Condolenses to the families who lost their loved ones, and may the dead rest in peace.

    (This attack a great trajedy, but no where near the trajedies which America itself is guilty of commiting)
  17. felix Registered Senior Member

    Why is it so hard to believe? I don't know that it's true, and if it is, it definitely needs to stop. We did, however supply and train Osama bin Laden when the soviet union was invading. We don't exactly do a good job of putting honorable people in office.

    I'm sorry that so many that aren't Americans are judging our actions before we've acted, but I understand where it comes from. Especially with some of the posts by my countrymen, Even though I understand that anger too. I'm also sorry that any country's citizens end up paying such a price for the behavior of their governments. I've done enough traveling to know that The United States is not looked at as "the good guy" around the world, and I'm probably being nice to us. In fact, I've often wished I could figure out a way convince Americans that wholescale repopulation of our government is necessary. Then again, that can probably be said in every country on the planet, so I'm certainly not unique.

    I hope nobody gets me wrong, I love this country. I don't, however, love our leaders. I hope with every grain of will I can muster that our leaders respond in a responsible manner. I hope we're not the ones that start WWIII. In fact, I hope no one EVER starts WWIII. Our society, and I mean world society, has been feeding on itself for quite some time now though. And there's a part of me that thinks we all better brace ourselves for some really hard times in the years to come. History is full of occasions in which things have to get much worse before they get better. And I hope that our leaders in America realize how easily letting rage get the better of us could act as a catalyst to make life-and-living as we know it crumble.

    I'm no expert, of course. I suppose it's possible that human society as a whole on this planet is more stable than I see it as being. I suppose I'm a bit scared about what comes next. I'm also not sure I wouldn't welcome events that would force us all to rebuild, and that scares me a bit too, because a part of me really likes the luxuries of the world I live in, even as I rebel against the endless games we humans hold so dear. I think we as a species need to do some serious "soul searching". We've forgotten the basics of being human.

    The recent attacks on the US and whatever action(s) our government(s) decide to take are just a couple of the endless symptoms of a much larger sickness that emcompasses the globe. We may be the generation that's forced to begin reshaping the world. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

    The things that really scare me about the whole thing is the very existence of nuclear and biological weapons. I don't even like to think about the possibility of anyone using that kind of warfare.

    Alright, I surrender the floor.
  18. kmguru Staff Member

    When you are the richest in the world, everyone likes to take a shot at...

    I am not talking about USA being the No.1....
    I am talking about Bill Gates...the similarities are uncanny.
  19. felix Registered Senior Member

    Well I've never tried to claim other than American Nationality. And I've also never even heard this before. I'm not saying it's not true, it may be, there are plenty of scared animals out there. I've just never heard of it.

    I'd also like to say that I stand up for what I believe in. And that I believe in America. And that this often means I have to stand up against my government, albeit carefully, my government does not have a friendly history toward revolutionaries.

    I stand proud to be American wherever I am. And sometimes I feel shamed the by the actions of our government. Sometimes even by the behavior of our masses. It's true that most of us don't pay attention to world news and couldn't really care less what's going anywhere but within a 100 mile radius of our homes, but that's not entirely our fault. We are not readily supplied with world issues (even pertinent issues for that matter) , the information is easy enough to get, but we have to look for it. And our society really, really likes the easy life. But none of this makes us bad people. Mostly we're a pretty friendly loving people.

    I don't know what I'm getting at. I think it just bothers me that I see so many general statements being thrown around in all directions. I think it also bothers me that so many generalizations become true when you get large groups of people together.

    We seem like an intelligent species but large groups, the opposite sex and fear of the unknown consistently make a bunch of babbling, slaughtering idiots.

    And what bothers me most is that I don't have the slightest idea how to overcome that enemy. It seems to me that "mob mentality" is our worst enemy, but how do you combat it? It's so tricky, because each and every individual has to be aware their own emotions and their communities' combined emotions at the same time lest one runs away with the other without conscious direction.
  20. Red Devil Born Again Athiest Registered Senior Member

    US posing as Canadians

    I have never heard this before and certainly have never met an American who claimed to be anything other than what they are - US Citizens. One thing I will say is the well publicized refusal of American Citizens to travel to the UK during the Gulf War - citing possible terrorist attacks and other attacks on London as excuses. Sylvester Stallone (the mighty RAMBO!) was one such. The fact that nothing like that has ever happened, apart from our own home bred, American funded, IRA. One person my daughter was in chat with did not even know that the IRA was a terrorist organisation! Just what world history (versions therein) do you learn in your schools? How many of you Americans know that, back in 1969, the British Army were sent to Northern Ireland to protect the Nationalists from the Loyalists? The Catholics from the Protestants? The Catholic backed PIRA, almost extinct, suddenly turned on the Army as an excuse - not for religious purposes nor political, but because they liked playing with guns and saw the Army as an "invader" and used that as an excuse. Sein Fein, the political wing of the IRA, is made up of mostly ex gunmen, who got sick of the troubles and decided to try it our way, through the ballot box. They may have changed their methods but still have blood on their hands. On the other side of the table we have the Loyalist Organisations, one or two just as bad as the PIRA and just as bloody intransigent! America is our ally and always will be, but some misguided fools in the USA pay Noraid etc to fund the gun and the bullet and not the ballot box. We are your friends but we can't understand why you pay someone to bomb and shoot at us!
  21. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    I would say that I am starting to come to grips with the WTC and Pentagon tragedies. I am still fluxuation a bit but I shall find stable ground in a bit.

    I agree with felix in that I am proud to be an American. I fI were born in England I would be proud to be British. It is a matter of where your nationality is. I am not proud of our politicians. Some of our leaders do right and some don't. What really gives me a head of steam about them is when they play at politics and party lines. Instead of unilateral actions as was displayed when agreeing to enact the war powers clause, when it comes to the country it is game playing time. As is witnessed with the tax rebate and what followed. This I have a hard time accepting and usually blame both sides while they are playing the blame game. At times I would empty the fedral government of all encumbents and replace them with new in hopes of a better deal after the shuffle. In ways it appears that we have reached a point of diminishing returns with the present group in power.

    I find nothing wrong with wanting to settle this peacefully. Only that road has been gone down before, over and over until there is nothing but ruts in the road. Talking will not settle this one. I for one have never claimed to be anything but American. At any time. I have served in our military forces and have met Canadians during NATO excersizes. They are good people and I have no bones to pick with any of you for being Canadian. It is not a disease to be of any nationality, including American. I see no alternative but to seek these terrorist out as no amount of diplomancy works.
  22. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member


    I'm glad to see that you take pride in your country. It's a quality to admire. You have to take pride in the accomplishments of your people. I respect that. But those who do, do it, would never admit to it in the country they were staying in, or to other Americans. That would just be stupid. But if you know a Canadian there too, then it's alright to tell them because what would care. It would be a compliment to us. Most of the time it doesnt happen, but make no mistake, it has happened and probably will continue to happen. Posing Canadian may have it's benefits. People just think of us as friendlier, although We both know that there isnt much of a difference in our two cultures. I hear most of these stories coming from travellers to Holland. They tell me that the people there really respect Canadians because the Canadians liberated them in WWII. Do not mistake me, though, as a moron, because I know they are a friendly and open minded peoples.

    BTW this might be a good time to point out something that's pissed me off for years: when any other nationality than Canada has an accomplishment, its all over the news. You think of the first to cross the atlantic, what comes to mind-------spirit of st. louis right? well fyi to the Americans.....Canadians did it first. Only difference was that they had 2 people on the plane. Did you guys know that??? Or who invented the phone or why the white house is white.

    I'll tell you why -------- it used to be called the excecutive mansion and it was pink. But in 1812 the Canadians came down and burnt it. All that was left was the stone frame, so you guys white washed it, and the rest is history. Neat fact, eh.

    My social teacher last year was telling me and my class about all the canadian inventors and influences, that we never heard of, exept for their brilliant influences. I'll try to get more examples for you guys later. I cant remember most of it now.

    Getting back on topic, I never said to just talk to these guys. I think that the best thing to do is put them in prison for life. Find the government who helped them ( if there is one ) and restructure it into a true democracy. Put the ones responsible into prison for life, and institue a meagerly funded marshall plan.

    Reduce the threat to almost nothing, by doing the same to any affiliation.

    Let me make my point again, I know diplomacy does not work but I also know that by killing too many people and destroying governments is enough to spark a deadly wwIII. Such an event no doubtably has the means to kill 1/3 the human population of earth, not mentioning the effects it would have to the Earth itself; eg earthquake creating machines, first proposed by Nikolai Tesla.

    I'd rather deal with these terrorists and the problem of overpopulation peacefully and integrally, as we should be the adults in this situation. If we help them beget a WWIII, then we will loose far more, than if we act prudently.
  23. some_guy01 Registered Senior Member

    Nice thought on imprisoning everyone Elbaz but you have to understand the political situation there. First I wish it would be that easy but there are other factors the people of that country would most likely create mobs and rioting if we just walked in there and took over. Second who do you have run the country? Most likely people of that nation won't because we would be changing their society and culture and besides we don't have the reasources to fund an other country.
    The reality is that we can't just be ingorant and think the terroists have made their point and will stop now because we see it. No these people are dangerous and willing to take their own lives for their cause. so even if we go into their country and take over they would probably set off a nuke killing us and them at the same time. I agree with what Bush plans to do( scary i usually don't like his ideas), but with the help of the rest of the world we can clean up this scum, with a probable loss of life and move on to create a better world.

    smll note- i didn't know you guys had planes back before or in the tweenties i did research on planes back then and they were not into actual devolpement untill after wwI which was in 1918. I didn't know that the wright bros made and sold planes to other counties well i don't know for sure i could be wrong that was a while ago when i did the research.

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