News from Gaza Part 2

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

As someone who lives half a world away and doesn't bother reading the detailed headlines in Israel you are thoroughly clueless about what people who live in Israel experience every day. The "give us a break" line smack of arrogance, but it is worse than that, because you're not even right.

Here are some graphs for you. Do notice the increase in HAMAS attacks on Israel following Israel's government's forceful expulsion of its own citizens from Gaza (something that should have made HAMAS stop, not increase firing rockets).

It was high time for this operation. To tell you the truth, I'm very very surprised at the level of international support that Israel is experiencing right now. The biggest surprise is Arab response. It is either silence (i.e. non-condemnation), forced silencing of anti-Israeli demonstrations, or actual verbal support, e.g. Egypt's foreign minister and other Arab leaders blaming HAMAS for IDF's operation. Honestly, this is unprecedented.

Maybe it's time you got your head out of the sand (or your ass... wherever it happens to be located this week) and try to be less biased and more objective?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMjSoUEysQ4&eurl

 

im glad for this response.

i dont blame you for your ignorant. your media is probably indifferent when it comes to Israel.

international sites usually recycle other sources and have their own agenda. now since you think im the one living in some fantasy, i have served for 3 years in the IDF. i was there. you cant say im living in a fantasy, you read about gaza, i was in gaza.

now, you talked about the big picture?

take a look at the next videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aflzoBc8EKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jCRAW2Xd1s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmOl4alnV0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Nq0QnTX84&feature=related

the residents of sderot are living in that reality for 8 years. you wanna tell them thats a fantasy?

a shame you dont try and understand our position and judge us just by what you see in the media.

 

even if the lehi was a terrorists organization, they both differ right down to the core. why? HAMAS has proclaimed not only to fight Israel, but vowed its destruction. not as a part of an ongoing fight for Palestinian freedom, but from a racist world view that puts Islam on top and every other culture and belief in the world as inferior. this is not a fight for self determination, or for freedom , it is a racial fundamental struggle against everything that is different from islam and against jews, explicitly said in the hamas charter that dates to 1988.

 

you still dont understand. you judge them both on wrong principles. HAMAS is not fighting against greater forces that judge it based on its religion or race, lehi was an organization that fought the right of Jews to exist not just as a principal but as a people in a world that didnt tolerated jews. HAMAS is the organization that doesnt tolerate jews, the same incarnation of the same thought and ideas that fueled antisemitism and spawned NAZI germany. HAMAS officials are hiding in bunkers while the palestinian suffer, HAMAS is waging a war against israel on the back of the palestinian people, HAMAS goal is not to build but actually considers a mass murder as a solution.

 

also you need to distinguish :
HAMAS is a religious terorist group they dont fight for there nation freedom (there for they are not freedom fighters! but religios fighters!! ) but for "greater" cause demolish all the heretics AKA non muslims in this case Jews. just look at it's creator Shech acmed yasin who was a fanatic that preached to kill all the jews not only the ones who live's in Israel ,just for the fact of their beening jews....and it rings a Bell (the Nazi regime).
also read the group's guide lines and see how tite it is to the kuran ,specialy to the commands of : "dar el charb" and jihad

lehi,etzel,hagana: secular group who aimed only against military facilities, troops and government officials all the characteristic of occupation but never! they attact civilian . they goal was to regain Israel and retrieve it to it's rightful owners ,the jews!.

 

1 - The nation: The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism[12], formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.
2 - The homeland: The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.
3 - The nation and its land: Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will.
4 - The Goals

1 - Redemption of the land.
2 - Establishment of sovereignty.
3 - Revival of the nation.
There is no sovereignty without the redemption of the land, and there is no national revival without sovereignty.

These are the goals of the organization during the period of war and conquest:
5 - Education: Educate the nation to love freedom and zealously guard Israel's eternal patrimony. Inculcate the idea that the nation is master to its own fate. Revive the doctrine that "The sword and the book came bound together from heaven" (Midrash Vayikra Rabba 35:8)
6 - Unity: The unification of the entire nation around the banner of the Hebrew freedom movement. The use of the genius, status and resources of individuals and the channeling of the energy, devotion and revolutionary fervour of the masses for the war of liberation.
7 - Pacts: Make pacts with all those who are willing to help the struggle of the organization and provide direct support.
8 - Force: Consolidate and increase the fighting force in the homeland and in the Diaspora, in the underground and in the barracks, to become the Hebrew army of liberation with its flag, arms, and commanders.
9 - War: Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.
10 - Conquest: The conquest of the homeland from foreign rule and its eternal possession.

These are the tasks of the movement during the period of sovereignty and redemption:
11 - Sovereignty: Renewal of Hebrew sovereignty over the redeemed land.
12 - Rule of justice: The establishment of a social order in the spirit of Jewish morality and prophetic justice. Under such an order no one will go hungry or unemployed. All will live in harmony, mutual respect and friendship as an example to the world.
13 - Reviving the wilderness: Build the ruins and revive the wilderness for mass immigration and population increase.
14 - Aliens: Solve the problem of alien population [i.e. the Arab inhabitants of Palestine] by exchange of population.
15 - Ingathering of the exiles: Total in-gathering of the exiles to their sovereign state.
16 - Power: The Hebrew nation shall become a first-rate military, political, cultural and economical entity in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean Sea.
17 - Revival: The revival of the Hebrew language as a spoken language by the entire nation, the renewal of the historical and spiritual might of Israel. The purification of the national character in the fire of revival.

18 - The temple: The building of the Third Temple as a symbol of the new era of total redemption.

the LEHI principles of rebirth. If you'll note there are some telling principles. namely
1,2,3,9,10,14.
1. the jews didn't start monotheism. Zoroastrianism predates it.
2.the use of an ahistorical text to try and claim land despite the fact archeological evidence doesn't support it.
3. a claim that only jews have a claim to the land because they claimed through conquest. It a. ignores the fact according to this logic every following conquer would than be able to claim the same right. and b. ignores the claims of the resident population.
9.a claim that Israel should be at war with everyone that is in the way with of their goal for Israel being created on the land that5 they said was his. so the syrians, egyptions, iraqi and the like would need to have been conquered.
10. a need for conquest to get all the land they claim is Israels
14. the expressed intent to force the resident arab population out of israel.
17. The purification of the national character yeah this is so a normal not extremist group. This is basicly an admitition that they intended to deny rights to people. and considering in the end Israel pardoned these people and rolled them into the IDF says a lot about what they thought.

 

Why would I use a discredited bigoted work? I'm looking for facts not nonsense.

only if were in buffalo land which were not. Just because you cannot see beyond your own narrow band of though doesn't make me a bigot nor unintelligent.

lol I look at both pro-Israeli and pro-palestinian sources. that way I see the same events from more than one angle. Still projecting with that legend shit are we. What's the point of providing citation your just going to misread it.

whats easier and has the same connatation. British citizens who live and work in the british american colonies or americans? Other people have shown they can understand my thoughgts its just you.

yes that was my reaction to your rambling about legality but I decided to give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you actually made a coherent relevant point.

IT wasn't a perfect analogy but it worked for honest people. No technically the british weren't an occupier but the basic meme of a weaker irregular force facing a stronger force applies.

well since you love to get technical for no good reason no it wasn't a coup. A coup suggests they were trying to take over the british empire. It was a rebellion to establish themselves independent of britan.

your like a computer no ability to fill in the gaps or grasp implications. Technically what your saying is correct but no your wrong. My postulation was that a weaker group if smart will work with the enemies of who they are opposing.

 

Um the LEHI wanted to put the jews first. read the principles or rebirth.

 

Every society has wackos in it, the important difference is how they deal with them.

 

It is still up to you to vet any source you use, I do, even when it comes from someone else's citation.

Yes, I gave citation, but you went to the same source and quoted information from it as evidence with out making sure that your source was correct. (Peace Now)

Yes I wonder all the time, but I them back up my wonder with verifiable history, and fact, something called evidence.

But it has no basis in this debate, you can wonder all you want but it didn't happen in real time, history, and space, so therefore it is pure unadulterated supposition, read fantasy, and no standing to the debate.

Only things that happen in reality are evidence of anything.

Sorry, but you need to check your facts, Avraham Stern, died February 12, 1942, and the Lehi Organization went in to eclipse, disappeared, in 1944, Yitzhak Shamir, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Israel Eldad.

The next time Lehi appeared was 2 years 9 months after Stern's death, 6 November 1944 Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo.

And after it became apparent that Britain was backing out of the Balfour Agreement.

Yes they are, as your the one who brought them in to the debate, plus the fact that the Muslims took a active roll in the Holocaust, in support, and encouragement of the Final Solution implemented by the Nazis.

Muslims in the Palestine Mandate, and British Mandate of Mesopotamia, took action in support of the Nazis Iraq,

Iraq:

British Mandate of Mesopotamia

Anglo-Iraqi War, 2 May to 31 May 1941. The conflict is also referred to as the Rashid Ali Rebellion.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni meeting with Adolf Hitler

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and Rashid Ali, didn't just offer support, they took active part in support of the Nazis,

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, raised 2 full Divisions, The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar, "Gebirgsjäger" , and the 23rd Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS “Kama” plus many Regiments and Brigades.

The most you have, is a wonder, about a what if, about Lehi.

No, you are claiming that the Lehi affiliated themselves with the Nazis, which didn't happen, and wasn't a reality, they took no action in support of Nazi Germany, and Avraham Stern, who made the offer, couldn't, as he was hors de combat, 6 feet under, and his organization was scattered to the winds.

There are two Organizations, one under, Stern, Irgun Tsvai Leumi B'Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel), and the next under, Yitzhak Shamir, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Israel Eldad, in 1944, Lehi, and I don't think you can actually show any connection between the two different groups, and the funny thing is that Under Stern, they didn't call themselves Lehi, they were the Irgun Tsvai Leumi B'Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel).

No, the reason that Stern tried to contact the Nazis was he was anti British, and he was trying to bring Jews to Palestine.

You are still left with, (your wonder), it didn't happen and didn't take place, so no connection, alternate history, revisionist history, not factual evidence of events, just your fevered imagination of a history that didn't happen.

Is your first name Dorothy?

Now provide citation to the fact that Avraham Stern or his organization killed countless Jews.

Here is the official count, 42 in all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

^ N. Ben-Yehuda, Political Assassinations by Jews (State University of New York, 1993), p397.

No, it is your hate for the Jews that is the problem, and how about some citation to back your claims,

Oh I forgot you don't know how to do research and back you mouth, you would rather let some one else do it for you, well I did for you once, and let you walk right into it, (Peace Now) you know what tipped me off to the Peace Now bullshit, the listed population of Ma'ale Adumim, as 250,000, if they had that wrong, they had the rest wrong, and you ran with the story wanting to make me look foolish, and all you did was expose your own foolishness and bigotry.

What don't you understand about the word attempt?

The only thing historical maybe the Attempt, by Avraham Stern, but nothing came of it, and that attempt died with Avraham Stern, in Feb. 1942.

And by Nov. 1944 the Germans were no longer a threat in the Middle East, their military formations had been run completely out of the Middle East.

You use the word fool very easily, but again there is a 2 year 9 month gap between the Stern Gang, and the Lehi of Nov. 1944, and Avraham Stern was dead and buried, the New Lehi didn't have anything to do with him, and by that time the British had shifted from their support of the Balfour Agreement, and actively suppressing immigration to the Palestinian Mandate by Jews.

Avraham SternDo you know who and where the Lehi stemmed from? They were part of Irgun, a militant Zionist group.. who came into existence well before WWII.

The Stern split with Irgun when the Irgun leadership refused to fight the British while the British fought the Nazi's. Stern wanted to continue the fight against the British while the leadership of Irgun decided to suspend its actions against the British.[/QUOTE]

And they Left Igrun, they went their own way, and were destroyed, and Avraham Stern, and his organization ceased to exist.

Exactly, but it wasn't till after the State of Israel was established that they were banned, but eventually they were pardoned.

Part of the Zionist movement? not after they split from Igrun in 1940, and they were not supported by the Zionist from that point on, and they rejected the Zionist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

Now explain that fact?

Lehi rejected the authority of the Jewish Agency and related organizations, operating entirely on its own throughout nearly all of its existence.

They were, from Feb. 12, 1042 until the reemergence in Nov.1944, and the then it was a new group, with new leaders, with no connection to the Offer to Germany.

Actually it does, because I am pointing out your fallacies, and your illogical though process in connecting fact that didn't take place, or groups that are not the same, Lehi as a name didn't emerge until, Yitzhak Hair, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Israel Eldad, put Lehi together.

In June 1940,when the split came, Avraham Stern, group was the Irgun Tsvai Leumi B'Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel), not Lehi, under Avraham Stern, there never was a Lehi.

Really.

Well if Fatah becomes the Government, guess what? it just might happen, and what would it mean? as long as peace was established?

Again, your wonder get in the way of facts, and the Fact are that the Israelis, have embraced Avraham Stern, Irgun Tsvai Leumi B'Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel), Yitzhak Shamir, Nathan Yellin-Mor, Israel Eldad, and Lehi as Heroes, in the establishment of the State of Israel.

And again Avraham Stern goal was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#cite_note-15

Saving Jews from the German Final Solution, I would consider that a worthy cause.

 

And what is wrong with that? seems to be a national trait for every nation I know of.

 

Hamas now*plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-warned-muslims-to-flee-israel-5473

 

Now what is so extream about this? isn't it the Goal of any Nation State.

Exactly the same principles as espoused in the Muslim principle of Ummah, and Islam, the Muslim and the Dhimmi, the Believer and the Infidel, only Islam goes the Jews on step further, they think they have the right to rule the whole world because Allah said it belongs to them, and that they have a right to inflict their Religious Right's on the Rest of the World.

 

So one group having a racist idealogy that wants the removal of others is wrong but another group having a racist idealogy is perfectly normal to you? and of course its going to be the jewish group that is ok in your book.

 

Did you read it? I don't know about you but removal of all people not belonging to my ethnicity who are in the area I wish to form a country on is extreme in my book. Triply so when they out number by a factor of 9 to 1.

Your comparing a medieval idealogy that isn't really in effect anymore to the charter of a terrorist group in the modern era and you think your making point. You really need to get a real education of what most muslims believe.